Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

may help

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/vietnam/

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 789055

Thanks!

Unfortunately this series of maps is way far to the South. I'd need sheets in the 6400 series which aren't posted. Somewhere in-between Ashau and Khe Sahn as I recall. Then I'd need a pilots overlay to identify the LZ. of YD 789-055.

All of our missions used the A-Z alpha numeric grid coordinates. Again, unfortunately we as Crew Chiefs usually had no idea where we were going or where we were after we got there. Some places grew to be familiar but when inserting a recon team, it could be anywhere and usually was. Hmmm I just noticed that I posted the wrong grid anyway.

The correct grid is YD 789055 and that is way up there in the left hand corner of S.Vietnam somewhere as I recall. The high 700’s was always in the Khe Sahn area. Dong Ha was in around the 106's Then there was the XD grids which were always hot. But time fades memory. I need a map!

Some one should have retained a map with the A-Z grids on them.

At least that is my hope.

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Due you mean YD789055? Got that location from VMO-3 Jan68 CC.

See Sheet 6541-IV Hue. You can download that map from the Texas Tech website.

1st Recon Bn had an insert scheduled at that location on 19Jan68, but apparently it was postponed due to weather and then the location was changed. Actual insert took place days later. See their Jan68 CC. 3rd Recon Bn had already moved to Quang Tri by then.

The location is SSW of Hue on the eastern edge of the foothills.

This is another case of "not enough documents/information available" to properly research the question.

Semper fi

Wayne Sutter
Fighting Mad 1 - 4 Actual, Out

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

I seem to be having a [hissy] fit trying to find that particular link at Texas Tech site . Also I’m not having luck with 1st Recons AA reports either.

I was fishing for an After Action report from whom ever RECON it was that was at 3rd Mar Div. at Phu Bai in January '68.

The date , 19 Jan, ’68 is clear in my mind. So are the missions but there is no documentation from HMM 164 to prove that it really wasn't Rod Serling hiding behind a CONEX box telling some audience that I was having a psychotic episode in the "Twilight Zone".

I know that there was a flight of two Marine HUEYs at the end of our last of many missions that day. I know that VMO 3 was at Phu Bai and I presume they gave us the support. I have the photo's of the mission and note that it could have beem in the foothills too but I recall the hills being a bit taller but time does wondrous things to memory.

I've tried to identify some of the Marines in the photos of that mission but have always had some doubts as to some of leads I've come up with the last few decades.

It isn't the mission, it isn't the identity of Marines in the photo's. It is what happened two days later because of that particular Jan 19th mission with Tim Timmons.

Notwithstanding the amazing and outdamstanding flying acumen of then Major Bob Nelson all day long, notwithstanding the series of photo's taken when time permitted I snapped that day. Notwithstanding all of that, it was the astounding and profound effect on my affect that a simple sermon given by Tim Timmons a day and a half latrer, the following Sunday. That is the prize I seek and validation that I want to document. Mr. Timmons and I talked about my little catharsis after forty plus years just a few months ago, finally. He recalled the sermon and the circumstances as to how he came to give it. Yet, now I am just disappointed that I haven’t been able to find theofficial records to bolster my memory and my photo’s for some unknown reason. I hate leaving facts to chance and wanted to bolster and refresh the time line or else like everything else, things all gets muddled into one unrecognizable jumbled up pile of electric synapses arcing and shorting out with old age. Bummer!

If you have the inclination and time, I'd appreciate if you could fwd the links to Cnowotny@msn.com. There is an answer somewhere and I don't think Rod Serling is it.

Semper Fidelis

_Chuck

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

http://www.virtualarchive.vietnam.ttu.edu/starweb/virtual/maps/servlet.starweb?path=virtual/maps/maps_new.web

This is the link to the Texas Tech map database. Just search for map number "6541-4".

Where did you get the coords YD 789055 from?

From mid Jan 68 thru mid March, we were in the middle of the monsoon season. Plus, Khe Sanh area was heating up. Recons west of the Rockpile were becoming suicide missions. A recon insert at your coords in mid Jan was on the main highway from Ashau to Hue. By then, all the traffic in that valley was one way. Remember, we were only 11 days before Tet.

Perhaps your insert was a SOG mission? 1st Recon Bn/1st Force were definitely Phu Bai residents in Jan68.

And, do not be concerned about flawed memories. We all suffer from it. Myself included. I wish the documentation was better preserved and/or presented to help us refresh our memories.

Gray hair is caused by brain cells leaking out of the skull.

Semper fi

Wayne Sutter
Fighting Mad 1 - 4 Actual, Out

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Wayne,

Das ist absolut wundervolles! Ausgeseichnet! Out damn standing!!! Thank you for your assistance. Grrrrrrrrreat!!!

I found that map, easy as pie... Well once you get the hang of it. However it is in very low resolution so I did some work on it. From the looks of it, it could be and should be the place where the emergency extraction took place. The close proximity to the river is one happy feature.

Now if you could find that After action report for the recon unit you described earlier. I checked VMO-3's AA reports and found them missing also however in their Command Chronology on Jan 19, it says they were involved in an emergency extraction. NFD.

I put the photos of the final approach on the third try to pull the team after getting shot out twice before on this posting. Also I’m putting photos of the team being dropped off at their home after we off loaded the wounded. The photo of the young Officer is, I believe their liaison as I met him just prior to launch earlier that morning at 3rd Mar Div. I don't believe he went with us on the insertion. He should be the easiest to identify. Also I believe my old eyes have been able to mark on the map where the coordinates I am looking for are. It is very, very close and the river is there also. It’s looking better and better. Now if you could assist me in finding any AA reports for Jan 19 for recon in that area.

In the meantime, I'll keep on searching.

Semper Fidelis

_Chuck

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

A few more shots of that mission. Prior to insertion and exiting, post extraction.

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Colonel,

I finally figured how to navigate through the Tex Tech web site. Thanks again for your help.

I see that VMO-3 was on four armed escort missions in support of an Emergency Extraction at the coordinates I had asked about on Jan 19th. [789-055]] Unfortunately again there are no after actions reports chronicling the mission other than the Command synopsis. That is why I’d love to find the pilots and their flight logs if still available.

I hope which ever Recon unit it was did better and used black ink. So many of our AA's were done in; would you believe, pencil???

Aside:

In the photo's on our third and final approach, there is a ceiling but it isn't unnavigable for VFR. On the ground it was clear as a bell photographically speaking. Even the shot of the team leaving to debrief after the extraction, the sky is relatively clear with just a slight hint of cloudiness. It definitely wasn't raining that day.

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Wayne,

I was able to find a small entry in the VMO-3 Command Chronology alluding to Jan. 19, 1968 where they flew in support of an emergency extraction at YD 879055.

I then found a map with your assistance; at the Texas Tech site that had those grids.

I next matched up the topography features of the map to my aerial photo's taken Jan 19th, 1968 as we orbited north of the zone after being shot out of it twice before.

The photo shows the Huey’s from VMO-3 pounding the L.Z and the enemy positions in the valley. I recall VMO-3 was complaining that they too were receiving heavy ground counter fire which was just a little unusual and meant the NVA weren’t being intimidated by the rockets and 7.62 being delivered on top of them. It also heralded things to come as it was the prelude to the attacks at Khe Sahn and the 1968 Tet Offensive at Hue . I also checked more contemporary satellite photos more of that area and verified them with my almost 43 year old photos. Everything matched to a “T”. Sand bars, creeks, ridges, Mama San taking a nature break on the river bank and everything matched.

I want to thank you for your assistance in finally putting some documentation to my photos and my story. Old Rod Serling of Twilight Zone Fame. can now go jump headlong into the ‘Sông Ta Trach’ river. (The Left or Southern Tributary of the Perfume River.) I've oft stated how he’s been bugging me, telling me that this was all a big fig bar of my imagination for far too many years.

It took some doing and a lot of perseverance but tenacity has always served me well with the help of a few kindly other industrious folks with good intentions.
A very Merry Christmas to all!

Semper Fidelis

_Chuck Nowotny

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Glad I could help.

You discovered an important secret, maybe it should be on wikileaks.

The gooks were never intimidated by anything we dropped on them. Just some days they stood their ground and fought like hell.

Remember we dropped more HE on that little country then we dropped on the whole planet in WW2, and the gooks still won the war.

Have a very Merry Christmas.

Semper fi

Wayne Sutter
Fighting Mad 1 - 4 Actual, Out

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

The problem was the yahoos in DC made us drop all that HE in the same spot.
Please don't say the googs won.
How can you loose when you aren't there any more

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

I finally have all of the information needed to put together an account of what I use to thing happened on Jan 19,th, 1968 but as time has shown, it was January 25, 1968 beginning with an early morning two bird launch led by Major Robert Nelson involving the recon Team Quizmaster among others. The reason for my specific interest was to put names to faces of the Marines who I had occasion to fly with on that day. One of the more haunting reasons was that when we dropped off the Quizmaster recon team of the 1 Battalion Force Recon (Rein) 4th platoon Co. “C” into YD789045, one particular Marine Recon team member was caught on camera looking at me as I took the photograph of the team deploying into the elephant grass. Unknown to everyone in the team an aboard my shop was that we had chosen a insertion point that was smack dab in the midst of at least a battalion of PAVN troops staged and set while en-route to Hue to participate in the coming Tet ’68 offensive. It was only about three hours later we returned to that same zone to pull the beleaguered team from that same valley, almost the same spot in an emergency extraction as they had almost immediately been completely enveloped and surrounded by hundreds of PAVN soldiers who were intent on destroying them completely. We had inserted t he team into what became a “Hells Half Acre” and we, their brother Marines were their only hope to survive that battle in the hope of seeing another day.

I’ve identified, after nigh on 44 years of inquiries, posts, false leads and frustrations personified the identity and the recorded details of that team and of the young 19 year old Recon Marine Pfc. Roger Minett Lay of Milford Ohio who later died of his wounds on the deck of my helicopter, YT-6.

It wasn’t immediately apparent at the time of the incident or even years later how this incident would come to haunt me and cause me to press onward with what seemed to be an impossible trail of disappointments and disenchantment with the lack of After Action reports and records of that period and especially of that day.

I was able to find small references to that mission in HMM 164’s Command Chronology, the Command Chronology of VMO-3, the After Action Command Reports filed by Lt. Phelps , who had also been wounded and was the team leader of Quizmaster as well as a personal account from his perspective of Cpl Bob Rininger, also wounded who was the radio operator on Quizmaster that morning.

My objective has almost been met as I still have the objective of contacting Pfc. Lays surviving father in Milford and offering him should he want to relive the non-graphic pictorial facts of his lost son’s last mission as well as the photos of the team and his son’s actions that day.

I don’t know if this is a morbid idea or not, but being the father of four sons, I think that I would appreciate and cherish such an account and photographic depiction if it existed and if all I had was a telegram or a well intentioned letter from the Corps advising of my sons loss. Especially if the existence of such photos and personal remembrances shedding a little light on the circumstance of my loved ones death in such a conflict as was ours, in such a far away strange land as was our war in Vietnam.

Time is the final arbiter of all things and I don’t think that time will make an allowance for me to continue another twenty or forty plus years so as to finally reach my stated objective and goal.

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Good on ya' Charlie. Glad you were able to close the curtain, so to speak, on that one....

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Chuck, I was the Crew Chief of one of the VM0-3 Gunships that day. What is more amazing, i took a super 8 video of a lot of the action that day. I also sent a detailed letter of the video so that my brother would understand the video. I have attached the letter home to this email. You will see it matches your description of events, even names the team "quizmaster". I had all of my video's converted to digital, and will post this particular day's events to utube later this week. The letter home is 5 pages, so each page is an attahment due to size. One small world isn't it.

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

HM lynch;34826 wrote: Chuck, I was the Crew Chief of one of the VM0-3 Gunships that day. What is more amazing, i took a super 8 video of a lot of the action that day. I also sent a detailed letter of the video so that my brother would understand the video. I have attached the letter home to this email. You will see it matches your description of events, even names the team "quizmaster". I had all of my video's converted to digital, and will post this particular day's events to utube later this week. The letter home is 5 pages, so each page is an attahment due to size. One small world isn't it.

You have got to me kidding me! Wow! Where have you been these past 44 years. Awesome, I can't wait to see the videos. I took 8mm's too at times but not this day. Too busy.

This will really make Bob Riningers decade or new year. He was the radio man in the photo with PFC LAY. He is gonna go ballistic with this news.

Thank you Lord Jesus for such a blessing so late in coming.

_Semper Fi

Chuck

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Harry,

I've converted your letter to your brother into an Adobe Document. Thank you Harry, I can't wait to see what you described in your 8 mm film which is now on DVD. Coming soon to a You Tube near everyone!
Yep! was there at the beginning and almost to the end of it all and it was unusual for me to take photo's like that while in the midst of an insertion. You were there in the middle and at the end and as you said, it was unusual of you to have taken movies of your work in action as you did. I Thank God that you did.

... and I was right and justifiably worried when I heard you complaining about the NVA shooting back at the Huey's while they were on rocket and gun runs.

You confirmed that it was unusual for them to be so bold and they must have thought they had the upper hand. but like I have always said, somehow they had gotten it into their heads as they moved on toward Hue that they owned this little valley and some how thought that we were the uninvited intruders.

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Chuck, to further connect the dots, our VMO-3 Pilot that day was Capt. Andrew S. Wells, otherwise know as "Airspeed Wells". My last communication with Airspeed was five years or more ago. He lives in New Mexico, flew for the New Mexico National Guard after his tour in the Marines, then became a corporate pilot. If anyone on the site has Airspeed's contact information you may have another sourse of data. His status with Popasmoke is inactive.

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Chuck,
PM sent

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Here is the youtube link for the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7Ds_7uuifU&feature=youtu.be

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Chuck:

On 12/30/11, you said in your post that you have the After Action Report for Quizmaster/Lt Phelps.

I have been looking all over for it with no luck. Where did you find it?

Can you post a copy or the URL?

My curiosity is burning!!

Semper fi - Happy New Year

Wayne Sutter
Fighting Mad 1 - 4 Actual, Out

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

sutterwl;34838 wrote: Chuck:

On 12/30/11, you said in your post that you have the After Action Report for Quizmaster/Lt Phelps.

I have been looking all over for it with no luck. Where did you find it?

Can you post a copy or the URL?

My curiosity is burning!!

Semper fi - Happy New Year

Wayne Sutter
Fighting Mad 1 - 4 Actual, Out

Sure, It was in the 1st Bttn Recon [Reinforced] Command Chronology at the Texas Tech History Project Website.
http://www.recordsofwar.com/vietnam/usmc/ All Marine units represented.

http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/virtualarchive/items.php?item=1201013198

part of the 1st Btn moved to Phu Bai, 3rd Mar Div to support Force Recon there. Quizmaster was one of the teams to move north on Jan 19.

http://www.virtual.vietnam.ttu.edu/cgi-bin/starfetch.exe?1NHbsqPBikLjPj@z6B1GqNSKmNxsgzCqhXuz88q3y4Cg9Dd0JhGKH9CVBp5zc2t0f8cacuaeNJkCtnIsrpelTzBbrQGGENTUrCdRNY0PF0x@G5co2nKmIA/1201013198.pdf

January Command Chron for Phu Bai is found in the Feb reports. Be advised the reports are NOT in order. The one for 25 Jan, Quizmaster is mentioned on a few patrols but the one concerned here is on Jan 25th. It is almost at the end, right after the LUNGA point mission.

If you save it to your computer as an Adobe Doc it will be on page #103 of 115 total pages.

Look for Enclosure #48 Co Operation Order # 28-68 dated 25 Jan '68

Harry Lynch's video taken from the supporting HU1E from VMO-3 is posted on You Tube at the link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7Ds_7uuifU&feature=youtu.be

The mission is near the end of the film beginning at 1:41 is I believe the beginning of the airsupport prior to the extraction of 1 Btn Co C, 4th Platoons recon team Quizmaster on 25 January, 1968.

At 1:46 - 1:50 the shot of the CH-46 A is my bird YT-6 in the hot LZ at YD 789045. I don’t know which time it is, the first second or the third attempt. The zone looks quite different and quite large. Not as I remember. However the Sông Ta Trach’ River looks familiar when you can see it in the background during bombing runs by the phantoms and A-6’s. When Harry sends me the higher resolution DVD I hope I can clean it up at bit.

If all this gibberish doesn't work, contact me by email and I'll send you anything you need. Cnowotny@msn.com.

In the process of hopefully contacting any living members of the recon team now. Bob Rininger says however that some have had bad run ins with that PSTD thing.

Edit: Thanks to all who helped me. Last night I reached Andy Wells who piloted one of the Gunships flying in support of this mission. Who'd a thunk it took 44 years to put this Humpty Dumpty back together again. In the words of Jim Brown, " I feel good!"

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

Mission accomplished. Yesterday, January 7th, a date that will live in..., in..., my infamous memory, I made finally, after 44 or FARDY FAR Mizzoura years made contact with the family. Father and Sister of Roger Minett Lay USMC in Goshen Ohio.

Rogers father was still alive at 93 and greatly appreciated the contact, the photos and the story of his sons last patrol.

The patrols leader Lt. Phelps had written a similar account in a letter when he wrote the family a personal sympathy letter regarding the circumstances of Rogers death.

I want to especially thank all or "YUN's" that assisted in the successful culmination of my 44 year long and very old investigation that basically finished up in a Super nova yesterday afternoon.

This was NOT a typical extraction in a hot zone. This was an exceptionally HOT zone and the guys of 'Quizmaster' wanted me to tell all the CH-46 crews and the crews of all helo units in Vietnam that there has always been a special affinity for us in their[RECONS] hearts and minds. Of course we knew that, but guys like radio man Bob Rininger 1st Btn, Recon (rein) Co "C" 4th platoon Quizmaster, wanted me to pass this on to all of you'se. Especially to:

Major Bob Nelson,
Lt. Tim Timmons,
Cpl. Jerry Siudzinski,
Harry Lynch and
Captain Wells of 'Scarface" VMO-3.

Semper Fidelis.

I am one extremely happy camper this fine and very windy Sunday Mornin. Oorah!

Re: Looking for a grid map to find the coordinates and location of YD 78905

This is a transcription of Harry Lynch's account of the 'Quizmaster' Extract.
The companion piece is his 8mm movie.

The extract begins about 1:40 into the film.

Also I found a few Pareiobolic Easter Eggs in the film as I examined it in slow motion and frame by frame. Example below. In this frame, one of the recon team with his pack rushes from his concealed position toward my waiting 46 about 30-50 yards down hill. The Huey is making a low level pass between the team and my waiting 46.

It is easier to discern in very slow motion but it is one of the team non the less. I would hazard a guess that it is the radio man,Rininger who was the only one wearing tiger stripes that day.