I was a SSgt at HMT-301 during that time. 2ndLt Bill Cato (MAJGEN Ret) and I were in charge of the guard and recovery camp. I was quite a site to see Sgt Cheshire's A/C. Sgt Jan White's A/C landed in much better shape, however badly damaged.

K.D. Logue

How about

The one over Okinawa. I don't remember what year it was, sometime around 2000 I believe and before Oct 2003.

glad i missed it!

i still get quesy when they show a helo going down on the news.anybodies ,any kind, any time !

I remember when a 53 flew into the side of a mountain outside of Pohang Korea, in the early 80's full of troops on a troop lift.

Missed it to

Lurch I was on another base or at test cell or something when it happened. But when I got back to the barricks I heard about it and saw some of the damage as they were sitting on the Flightline.

different time frames

JAGarland;23862 wrote: Lurch I was on another base or at test cell or something when it happened. But when I got back to the barricks I heard about it and saw some of the damage as they were sitting on the Flightline.

i don't think it was the same crash. any way i remember one bird had alpha damage.and the crew made it out of the other one. it had by some fluke landed in a small meadow on top of a mountain. it was a royale b*#ch to salvage cause the rotor wash would catch the pieces and the would fly up towards our rotors like a kite !:(

53 vs 53 midair

I remember the Santa Ana crash. One of my best friends, Capt Watson and 3 others died in the first chopper. The second chopper landed with major damage but all aboard survived. They were flying formation when they impacted during a formation lead change. The second pilot was also involved in the 53/130 crash during Operation Eagle Claw (Iran) which resulted in another 8 Marines dying.
I've looked everywhere and haven't found any mention of this first accident or Capt. Watson's death in any publication (including the USMC Combat Helicopter Association) until this thread. Any other info or links or ? anyone else could send would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you

I graduated from flight school with Jim Watson: see photo #3787 (we were in the same class at The Basic School). After flight school Jim went into CH-53's at MCAS Tustin and when he was sent to Vietnam about Nov. 1969 he was assigned to HMH-361. When 361 pulled out of Vietnam in early 1970; Jim Watson, Joe Hutton, and Al Worley where sent to HML-167 to finish their tours of duty.

I remember that Jim Watson was the pitcher on our squadron softball team at Marble Mountain. When Jim rotated home in late 1970 he went to the West Coast, and returned to flying CH-53's. I was sent to MCAS Cherry Point and did not hear about Jim's death until I went to Okinawa in Jan. 1975

What was the date of that mid-air?

Joe Hutton

I was assigned to retraining Joe Hutton in H-53's out of Oki in '76. He was our S-1 OIC. We were taking a bird up to Atsugi Japan for rework, and the AFCS went out, almost immediately...so it was a non-hydraulic assisted flight, all the way...what a way to retrain...eh? We kept exchanging the controls all the way, due to fatique...LOL. Of course, once we got there, we had a nearly duty-free work week, which was used for physical training (golf).
We never went to the bar...well, maybe once...

date of midair

in the fall of 1974 maybe ? seemslike i remember that it was getting dark around1800 or 1900 don't know for sure , i have CRS syndrome !:confused:

CH-53 mid air

There was a CH 53 carcass in/on the approach end of one of the runways @ MCAS New River (near) base housing...heading northerly...
After a few months, I got permission to strip some mechanical parts off of it that were usable to the CP for their schools...Except for the fact that it had crashed, there very many parts that could be useful to the maint schools. I think it took a couple years to finally haul it away...
Do you think that was your crash?
Hooper

this is the crash,from HMT-301 @santa ana

qwerty;23939 wrote: I remember the Santa Ana crash. One of my best friends, Capt Watson and 3 others died in the first chopper. The second chopper landed with major damage but all aboard survived. They were flying formation when they impacted during a formation lead change. The second pilot was also involved in the 53/130 crash during Operation Eagle Claw (Iran) which resulted in another 8 Marines dying.
I've looked everywhere and haven't found any mention of this first accident or Capt. Watson's death in any publication (including the USMC Combat Helicopter Association) until this thread. Any other info or links or ? anyone else could send would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you

Ican,t find anything on it ether! or the names of the dead from the CH-46 CRASH @ YAKOSUKA JAPAN ON aug 20 1973

CH-53 crash

Sorry, I was referring to the one @ MCAS New River...

Hmt-301

I was in HMT-301 at the time of the mid-air. I had just flown with Sgt. Cheshire a few days before. I remember his VW bug sitting in the parking area for quite some time after the accident. I can still see it.

53 Vs. Huey

Lurch,
The New River crash from 1967 was a Huey and a '53, not two CH-5s. Is there another incident you're speaking of?

53 vs 53

Hi Joe!, yes sir ,the one I started this thread about ,was in the mountains behind santa ana /el toro area between two CH-53 s one plane made a crash landing in a high meadow the other had alpha damage in the bottom of a deep gully or canyon .K.D. proabley(man i'm a lousy speller) knows more of the details than i do !i do remember that the wreckage was brought back to the HMT- 301 area on the S-1 side of the hanger ,hanger #2 @ LTA .i also remember that a piss poor job was done of cleaning up the remains of the cockpit inst panels. and i remember what their flight helments looked like .not pretty!!! SF kc

whoops or oops or aw s#!T

lurch;23949 wrote: in the fall of 1974 maybe ? seemslike i remember that it was getting dark around1800 or 1900 don't know for sure , i have CRS syndrome !:confused:

now that i think back on this i not sure of the date at all . I may have gotten the years and incidents mixed up with another time I spent in the boonies. this time alone overnight on prado dam where hwys 71 & 91 meet west of the chino hills.i was in good old HMT 301 my pilot was the base C O (who said thanks afterwards) and the problem was a blown garlock seal (aft vert shaft aft xmsn ) that the two sncos in QA said was fine (it was a six ragger) and wouldn't let me down it ! one of them later became a real good friend of mine .not so much the other guy !any way it became a catastrophic leak some where between 6 & 7 thousand feet and we made an emergency landing on the dam. in 1975 i think:)

The date was February 18 1975, The crash site was in mageska (SP) canyon.

The A/C with the fatalaties was piloted by Capt. Jim Watson, 1stLt Belai (SP)
Sgt Cheshire, LCPL Alt.

The A/C that landed with it's tail rotor on the deck and several feet missing on several of it's main rotor blades was piloted by Capt Les Petty, 1stLt Walton, Sgt Jan White, there was a 1stLt PUI on board for the ride and had brought his super 8 movie camera, and filmed much of the ancident from the lead A/C's point of view.

R/S K.D Logue

Re: 53 vs 53 midair

kdlogue;24454 wrote: The date was February 18 1975, The crash site was in mageska (SP) canyon.

The A/C with the fatalaties was piloted by Capt. Jim Watson, 1stLt Belai (SP)
Sgt Cheshire, LCPL Alt.

The A/C that landed with it's tail rotor on the deck and several feet missing on several of it's main rotor blades was piloted by Capt Les Petty, 1stLt Walton, Sgt Jan White, there was a 1stLt PUI on board for the ride and had brought his super 8 movie camera, and filmed much of the ancident from the lead A/C's point of view.

R/S K.D Logue

The Sgt Jan White mentioned above was he a dark green Marine? There was a Gysgt. Jan White that was in HMH-362 in the 1980's with me and he was the 53 Line Chief on a Cruise in 1987 with HMM-261. Gunny White taught me the rest of what I know about CH-53D's. He retired as a MSgt while staioned at NAS Alameda with the old RH-53D's the Navy gave the Reserve HMH Squadron. Last time I saw him was Al Jubail in Saudi Arabia During Desert Storm. I was doing govenor matching on one of our N model Huey's when he walked up to me and punched me in the arm to get my attention, I almost hit him in the jaw until I realized who he was.

Re: 53 vs 53 midair

One small observation regards CH53 Hydaulics. No CH53 ever flew without hydraulics!! The main rotor system is far above the load where manual controls would function. The last Sikorsky Helicopter that was possible to fly with the Hydraulic servo off was the H19 . One flight check in the H19 was to switch off the Primary servos & fly manually. The collective was very heavy in that mode but still flyable. Loss of AFCS in the Ch53 meant that the Avionics components ( Gyro imputs) were disconnected to the AFCS servo electronic motors of the AFCS servos . When engaged the imputs would drive the motors which moved the pilot valves on the AFCS servos than the AFCS power pistons moved which in turn drove the pilot valves on the primary servos thus bringing the helicopter back to the position of the flight controls selected by the pilot. The first Sikorsky Helicopter with AFCS was the UH34 or (HUS-1). While in Vietnam with the VNAF Advisory Group We had 130 H34 helicopters. Some were CH34 from the Army which had the Aux servo but no AFCS . In the CH34 there was a staionary attachment (Dummy Motor) where the AFCS motor was on the UH34 & The UH34G, That was a problem I had to solve since the fleet had both systems & the VNAF had no AFCS Test benches Or knowledge on the syatem. When the AFCS system failed it ended in a hardover and no maintenance capability to correct it. I had them center the AFCS motors in the UH34s than remove the AFCS Box entirely. That made the servo motor as a stationary attachment and than having all of the H34/UH34s as manual only. Long winded explanation but felt it might be of interest to some. I know some Marine Pilots flew with VNAF ocassionally & wonderd why there was no AFCS even in the UH34D. I flew several hundred hours (1964/1968) with those mixtures & it was all manual. SF PM

Re: 53 vs 53 midair

Paul,
Thanks for that clarification....I wondered about flying a '53 w/o hydraulics!

Re: 53 vs 53 midair

I read this thread before I became a member here so it took me a little while to get vetted to respond. In the meantime I did as much research as I could to find out what happen.

I left HMT-301 24 Jan 1975. This accident took place on 18 Feb 1975. The aircraft involved were SU-21 and SU-22 according to my research. I qualified as crew chief the day that SU-21 was picked up from overhaul at North Island. I was assigned to the aircraft and it was a very reliable helicopter. I was good friends with both Bill Cheshire and Jan White. LCpl Alt had been my first mech several times.

Because the news reporting wasn't very good during that time I didn't hear about the accident until sometime after through a friend that lived across the state from me. He came to visit after you got out and told me about the accident. I was not aware that Jan White had been on the aircraft that landed hard.

I had flown with all the pilots involved and remember Leslie Petty particularly. I remember seeing years ago his name in the reporting of the failed rescue attempt of the Iranian hostages. Turns out he was the Co-pilot on the aircraft that collided with the C-130 at Desert One. He and the Pilot were both severely injured in the accident.

I flew on SU-21 almost exclusively during my time there. Had I stayed at the base longer the likely hood I would have been on that aircraft that day was very high. But would the planets and stars aligned the same way and I had gone down with the aircraft I guess I will never know.

Re: 53 vs 53 midair

pm3777;34148 wrote: One small observation regards CH53 Hydaulics. No CH53 ever flew without hydraulics!! The main rotor system is far above the load where manual controls would function. The last Sikorsky Helicopter that was possible to fly with the Hydraulic servo off was the H19 . One flight check in the H19 was to switch off the Primary servos & fly manually. The collective was very heavy in that mode but still flyable. Loss of AFCS in the Ch53 meant that the Avionics components ( Gyro imputs) were disconnected to the AFCS servo electronic motors of the AFCS servos . When engaged the imputs would drive the motors which moved the pilot valves on the AFCS servos than the AFCS power pistons moved which in turn drove the pilot valves on the primary servos thus bringing the helicopter back to the position of the flight controls selected by the pilot. The first Sikorsky Helicopter with AFCS was the UH34 or (HUS-1). While in Vietnam with the VNAF Advisory Group We had 130 H34 helicopters. Some were CH34 from the Army which had the Aux servo but no AFCS . In the CH34 there was a staionary attachment (Dummy Motor) where the AFCS motor was on the UH34 & The UH34G, That was a problem I had to solve since the fleet had both systems & the VNAF had no AFCS Test benches Or knowledge on the syatem. When the AFCS system failed it ended in a hardover and no maintenance capability to correct it. I had them center the AFCS motors in the UH34s than remove the AFCS Box entirely. That made the servo motor as a stationary attachment and than having all of the H34/UH34s as manual only. Long winded explanation but felt it might be of interest to some. I know some Marine Pilots flew with VNAF ocassionally & wonderd why there was no AFCS even in the UH34D. I flew several hundred hours (1964/1968) with those mixtures & it was all manual. SF PM

Paul:

You got that right. What is your opinion, please, on all these new fly by wire systems? I believe the Osprey has them and I know civilian aircraft to include the new Boeing 787 have them.

All the aircraft I flew ultimately had a strong cable connected either directly to the flight controls or directly to the hydraulic pilot valves. That seems a lot safer to me.

Thoughts?

Re: 53 vs 53 midair

Ray Norton;35549 wrote: Paul:

You got that right. What is your opinion, please, on all these new fly by wire systems? I believe the Osprey has them and I know civilian aircraft to include the new Boeing 787 have them.

All the aircraft I flew ultimately had a strong cable connected either directly to the flight controls or directly to the hydraulic pilot valves. That seems a lot safer to me.

Thoughts?

Ray, Paul is right the load would have been too high on the flight control system without hydraulics. They new aircraft coming out all seem to have FBW (Fly By Wire) controls. The V-22 has a FBW system with a 5000 psi hydraulics. A lot of the newer aircraft are coming out with either a total FBW system or a partial system. The bigger the aircraft or more complex the more likely it will have FBW.