Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

I can not speak for other squadrons, but during my year in Vietnam with HML-167 Dec. 1969 to Dec. 1970 we never used anyone from out side our squadron as door gunners. The crew chiefs were assigned to an aircraft and any time that aircraft flew the crew chief flew with it. For the other door gun Marines from the different sections in the squadron would be put on 60 day temp. flight orders. That was usually enough time for them to get their Combat Air Crew Wings, and a few Air Medals. We always had more guys wanting to fly as door gunners than slots for them so we never had to go outside the squadron to find door gunners.

If he flew as a door gunner he should have Combat Air Crew Wings and Air Medal on his DD-214. I know that the 34's, 46's and 53's flew mail out to field, but I don't know if a Postal Clerk had to go out with the mail.

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

Allyn Hinton;32998 wrote:

If he flew as a door gunner he should have Combat Air Crew Wings and Air Medal on his DD-214. I know that the 34's, 46's and 53's flew mail out to field, but I don't know if a Postal Clerk had to go out with the mail.

These I know he does not have, as he remarked about my CAR by saying that "we should have all gotten one just from being there". Yes....I bit my tongue

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

😮 Jon-Jon I won't be to quick to discount this Marine as they had jobs and its possible that he could of flown as Gunner. We from time to time had people Temp-Assign to be Gunners. As far as being Postal Clerk we had them Too and one of Our Officers OIC was over Mail too as Well as Flying. Just from what I remember ! JJ

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

thanks Jerome and Allyn for sharing your opinions. I'm beginning to realize that anyone's personal experiences would be hard to substantiate, and because of this I will continue to keep an open Mind.

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

If he flew any number of missions he should have been awarded an Air Medal....Also, the aerial gunner qualification should be on the DD-214 as well Had to qualify before he could fly gunner and he had to be on flight pay as well.....

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

Jon-Jon,

Ditto on all the above.
Don't know what MWGS-17 was, and never knew of any choppers at DaNang air base. (Allyn is the expert on this topic.) Most all of us responding to this thread were at Marble Mountain just south of DaNang.

In 1968-1969 I was initially with the H&MS-16 support group at MMAF. However, I qualified as a gunner and flew several missions as a door gunner with a 34 squadron from July-November during '68. I wasn't temporarily assigned, I just went to the ready room each day and waited. If the squadron needed extra gunners they pulled from a few of us outside the squadron. My Millitary records show that I qualified for my Combat Wings and Air Metal while flying with HMM-165 during the summer of '68. (However, I think it was HMM-163 and I either mis-read the citation, or it was a typo.)

While with H&MS-16 in '68, I also flew several flare missions at night over the northern I-Corps area near the DMZ. This was on C-117 (DC-3) fixed wing aircraft.

However, my recollection from my stay in Vietnam from April '68 through Nov '69 is that all the "Puff" and "Spooky" missions were being flown by AirForce aircraft. Again, Allyn can verify the record on that. If this is true, how would a Marine be flying in support of the Air Force?

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

You speak volumes Merlin, and thank you. You QUALIFIED as a gunner....which was my whole point of this thread...like wouldn't a postal clerk have to qualify at some point? I mean I don't know unless it was an in-country thing. but this is what has been bugging me about the whole thing from the get go.
For the record his outfit was MWSG-17, 1st MAW (not MWGS)
Hey...it's GREAT speaking with you guys! Anybody remember a shithook medevac, mid Sept 69 in Antenna valley ( NW of LZ Ross and 953)....you (pilot? front left) said to a 140lb malaria ridden jarhead.."that sure is a nice M-14 you got there" to which I replied "you want it?" Ha...wtf did I care, next stop was 1st Med....I love you guys!

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

There was a range on the beach at Marble Mountain. To fly as a door gunner they made sure you knew how to fire an M-60, clear jams etc. Then took the guys down to the beach to fire out into the South China Sea. The whole thing was pretty informal, but with a crew of 4 on a UH-1E gunship the last thing you need was someone who didn't know what they were doing. I knew several guys in the squadron who worked in metal, engine or avionics shop who started out flying as gunners and worked their way up to being crew chiefs.

Also on the CH-46's they carried .50 cal Browning machine guns, so maybe someone from an HMM or HMH can tell you what their squadrons did to get their gunners checked out before they went out on a real combat mission.

Being a Postal Clerk to me seems like a pretty important job and one that a person should be proud to have done. I remember at Basic School they made sure to let all us new 2ndLt's know the following: that we better make sure all our Marines got feed, got paid, and got their mail. As long as those 3 things were taken care of the Marines will do anything you ask of them.

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

Qualify ?? I don't have anything on my 214 that says "gunner" or "qualified" to squat let alone get intimate with a M2:rolleyes:
I hit HMM-262 at Quang Tri and as I checked in at the line shack some gunny says "You want to fly son?" - and off I went ten minutes later for a week or two as gunner until they had a chance to "Natops Test" me for crewchief.

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

RE #9...
Allyn,

Maybe "qualify" for gunner is a mis-use of the term. It should be more like familiarize with the respective weapons.

My "familiarization" with the M-60 and 50 cal was in the summer of '68 with one of the 53 HMH squadrons a MMAF. We had a brief session in the hangar with the respective weapons, then boarded a 53 and flew out to the South China Sea where the crew chief threw out a couple of wooden pallets then we made passes blaz'n away with the respective weapons.

Once returning to the base our only "qualification" was learning how to strip both weapons and clean them thoroughly. My recollection is that if you didn't have this basic weapons familiarization training, there was no flying gunner.

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

mclayton;33024 wrote: RE #9...
Allyn,

Maybe "qualify" for gunner is a mis-use of the term. It should be more like familiarize with the respective weapons.

My "familiarization" with the M-60 and 50 cal was in the summer of '68 with one of the 53 HMH squadrons a MMAF. We had a brief session in the hangar with the respective weapons, then boarded a 53 and flew out to the South China Sea where the crew chief threw out a couple of wooden pallets then we made passes blaz'n away with the respective weapons.

Once returning to the base our only "qualification" was learning how to strip both weapons and clean them thoroughly. My recollection is that if you didn't have this basic weapons familiarization training, there was no flying gunner.

:confused: Merlin won't try to improve on your statement for thats right down the line that we use. Familiarization was the 1 and to fly out to the Ocean out from Quangtri
was something else. Had a few Pliots that like to do some hard right and then hard left
to see if you could keep track of the target. I remember feeling like I was flat on my back and the next thing I knew I was looking straight down at the Ocean ( No SKY could I see). So I do know that 262 put most in this training.

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

mclayton;33024 wrote: RE #9...
Allyn,

Maybe "qualify" for gunner is a mis-use of the term. It should be more like familiarize with the respective weapons.

My "familiarization" with the M-60 and 50 cal was in the summer of '68 with one of the 53 HMH squadrons a MMAF. We had a brief session in the hangar with the respective weapons, then boarded a 53 and flew out to the South China Sea where the crew chief threw out a couple of wooden pallets then we made passes blaz'n away with the respective weapons.

Once returning to the base our only "qualification" was learning how to strip both weapons and clean them thoroughly. My recollection is that if you didn't have this basic weapons familiarization training, there was no flying gunner.

We did just about the same thing in HMM-161 in '69 & '70. Flew out over the China Sea and dropped a dye marker, then dropped a ship flare in the middle. Made several passes, saw the dye coming up and tried to shoot the flare out of the water. If you hit the flare you qualified.

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

I was a bubble chaser/gunner, nothing on my DD214 about qualifying as a gunner. We had 60's when we first got into country and we went out and shot at the South China Sea, then we got the 50's and shot up the sea again, just bigger splashes. We needed gunners and all that wanted their Wings and Air Medals got a chance to go get them, from the SgtMaj to the motor "T" guys. We even gave some grunts a chance to earn wings.

Re: 1st MAW Viet Vets.....Is This Possible?

Tim, we had a gun qual ride, and if you could hit a shark, you were gunner, and if not you went again until you got one. I had one gun Flight, then the next flight was Crew Chief training. It took 198 combat missions during one month, then took the check ride, and became a Crew Chief. Fun all the way. Semper Fi, and READY-APP. ACE.

@JoeReed , my DD-214 shows my door gunner qualification, however through some paperwork missing or lost none of my other records state anything about the missions I flew !! 🙁

@amswuod1 ,  Do you have Air Medals listed on DD-214 ?  I know I got a certificate for first AM and then when I got back to states I got another for the total authorizing what numerals to put on ribbon.
Did you ever send to St. Louis for your service records ?  

Dale-A-Riley, yes I did, twice actually. The first time had no medical records from boot camp to discharge !!

The second request got me partial medical records and nothing more about time in country other than counter insurgency operations from Mar '66 - Oct '67. (I extended 6 months).

Someone somewhere dropped the ball, so screw it ....

@amswuod1 Is there a specific objective that you need the records for, such as the VA ?

You could try to contact some of the people you remember and ask for “buddy statements” or the Texas Tech site where you can find the After Action Reports the pilot filled out after each flight that would have crew members listed. I did both for a claim and looking through the AAR’s really jogs your memory as you read the names etc.

At PAS here I found out about the form to ask for “Service Record” and that was successful.  I then found out there was a separate form for “Medical Records” and the answer came back that they had been sent to the VA  -  which opened another obstacle in itself. Good luck.