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Over the years of reading and adding to other postings on the NOTAM Board I'd like to get other Marines to put their feelings about how they think we will fit into the bigger history of this nation. This is because of my two great loves: the US Military where I served 42 years active and reserve 1960 to 2002, and US History a subject I taught for 28 years 1980-2008 at Parkway South High School.
I was in high school 1956-1960 and remember there was this old science teacher/cross country coach Mr. Smith who had served in the Army during The Great War (World War I). He retired after my junior year 1958-59. Most of the other male teachers on the staff had served in World War II. We even had a female health teacher that had been an Army Nurse who told us about how her hospital had almost been captured during the Battle of the Bulge, but they managed to pull out just in the nick of time. She had the pictures to back up her story, knee deep in snow in front of her hospital tent. The two varsity football coaches; Mr. Sander had been a Tuskegee Airmen, and Mr. Dela Roche was an Army Paratrooper that saw action in the Philippines. When I graduated from high school in 1960 World War II had ended only 15 years ago, and Korea had only ended 7 years ago. So these events were all pretty fresh in everyones mind.
To the young people today we are now in the place of those World War I Vets. It seems that 20 or 30 years ago no one wanted to hear about or talk about the Vietnam War, but today I get ask to talk to students at the local schools, and they are all very good to me, and seem really interested.
Did anyone else remember having vets on the staff of your schools when you were growing up, and what impact did they have on you wanting to serve?
Two more things: I heard that one out of four names on The Wall is that of a Marine, and 10% of those that died in Vietnam were helicopter crewmen. That seems really high since the Marines never made up 25% of the total force, and helicopter crew were no where near 10% of the total troops in country.
Posted : 2011-02-07 22:47
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
Those stats are good Allan. I have always heard, and believe its a 10 to 1 thing. One Marine does the job of 10 Army. I believe it. Even as far back as '89 you could not talk about Vietnam under any circumstance, in any History class, and I had 4 years of it getting my Bachelor Degree. I got it in '93. There was one semester of make up classes. If Mr Dela Roche is still alive he will remember 'Oakie', my Father. Hope he is. There are still a number of them still with us. I believe Vietnam is very popular now. Everyone wants to be one, but slowly they are getting weeded out. There was less than 2.5 million or so that was actually there, but now they are crawling out of the wood work. I believe the 1 of 4 were Marines, and 10% of those were Marine Air Crew. Not all had what it took to fly, and do what we did. Simple fact. They would fly for awhile, then you wouldn't see them any more. We understood though. I believe more books by us will be written. We should hurry up, or dictate it, and someone else can finish it., Just a thought. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Posted : 2011-02-08 02:19
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
[QUOTE=Allyn Hinton;31733]Over the years of reading and adding to other postings on the NOTAM Board I'd like to get other Marines to put their feelings about how they think we will fit into the bigger history of this nation. This is because of my two great loves: the US Military where I served 42 years active and reserve 1960 to 2002, and US History a subject I taught for 28 years 1980-2008 at Parkway South High School.
QUOTE]
This is an interesting question. Wish I could come back in 50 years to provide a susinct answer.
However, from today's perspective I think the U.S. involvement in VietNam historically will be viewed in the same context as our involvement in the Boxer rebellion at the turn of the 20th century. It will be historically noted, but few will remember details and significant events.
VietNam was an unpopular war with no great immediate threat to the U.S. Therefore, there wasn't the political willpower to see it through. It was managed by the Washington civilian elite instead of our military strategist. VietNam was on everyones TV with the evening news at dinner time each night, the carnage was in our living rooms. And finally, we lost. Therefore people want to forget.
This is unfortunate, because for those of us that were there, we cann't forget. We weren't concerned with the popularity or the political correctness. As Marines, we were there to do our duty, not because we were forced to fight (i.e., drafted). And we won every major battle or confrontation. It was the political will that lost the war for us.
Now my whole perspective may be moot if there are a flood of books written on epic battles like the seige of KheSahn, or Hue city during Tet, or Hamburger Hill in the Ashau Valley. Books similar in perspective to "We Were Soldiers" which was turned into the movie with Mel Gibson as Col. Moore. If Hollywood producers like Tom hanks, Ron Howard, Gary Sinise, etc. made quality movies on these epic events the whole American perspective would be different.
Sorry for being philoshophical I guess, but it's my perspective at this point in my life.
50 years from now, I don't think VietNam will be much more than a footnote in the history books.
Regards,
Merlin Clayton
VietNam: April, 1968 - Nov 30, 1969
H&MS-16, HMM-165, HMM-263, HML-167, VMO-2
Posted : 2011-02-08 11:30
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
I suspect it will go down as a footnote in future history books as the wrong war, in the wrong place, fought by the wrong kids: in the living rooms and kitchens of their parents. Hopefully it will also be the LAST war America sends her patriots to fight controled, by political nitwits and gutless wonders. Would I go after the Towel Heads? in a heart beat because it appears the "elected" have learned the lesson, hopefully not to be forgotten
Posted : 2011-02-08 14:04
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
BartClu;31744 wrote: .... Hopefully it will also be the LAST war America sends her patriots to fight controled, by political nitwits and gutless wonders.
You have the same perspective as me, but you articulate it so much better!
Regards,
Merlin Clayton
VietNam: April, 1968 - Nov 30, 1969
H&MS-16, HMM-165, HMM-263, HML-167, VMO-2
Posted : 2011-02-08 14:07
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
Bart, Merlin, I really doubt Vietnam will be the last war our nitwits send Americans to fight. We are fighting 2 right now, that I know of. They even want permanent Bases there. WHY? Its the dumbest thing I have heard in at least a month or two. How many more years are we going to let professional un-employed recieve checks? Our great leader wants 65 Billion dollars to send to states to give the un-employed now. There are jobs out there, but they can make more on the 4 hundred a week watching tv, on tax payers taxes, than get a job. Its going now 2 or 3 years they have been on the un-employment, and it is enough. Now ms. bakman was thinking about cutting we Veterans Compensation checks to balance the budget while they are sending 400 a week to people who will not work. In '12 we need to vote a bunch more out if they even think of cutting out comp checks. I do KNOW I will. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Posted : 2011-02-09 11:01
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
She had the pictures to back up her story, knee deep in snow in front of her hospital tent.
Wow, folks lets ponder this for a moment...A woman, WW II, in a combat area, in the BOONIES, in the snow, in a tent!!!! Wow! I'm already proud of her, and never knew her!
Also Allyn,
My Dad was a WW II veteran, South Pacific, 2nd Army Okinawa campaign and was proud to have served. SInce you asked, many of my Male High School teachers in 1961-65 had fought in WW II or Korea. None were Marines and none were pilots, to my knowledge. They never bragged, but were proud to a man that they had done their duty for their country. Pride was still a good thing then....
Posted : 2011-02-10 09:22
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
Interesting that this subject should come up now. I'm just finishing a book,Cruel April by Oliver Todd. This work, shows the political and military workings from the time we pulled out to the fall of Saigon. It really shows the ineptitude of not only the US gov. but also that of the So. Vietnamese. One of the most upsetting aspects of this for me, was the total lack of any thought for our sacrifices in blood and men that proceed the final sellout! I think Allan is right, we will be little more than a footnote in history. Unfortunantly, if we keep on the same path we are on now, there may be no US history.
Clear to turn sir:eek:
Posted : 2011-02-10 09:48
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
The Baby Boomers are the biggest single population group to date in this country. Every one of them participated in the Vietnam War either in person or protest.
It will not be forgotten.
Now, as to whether we learned from it, only time will tell.
/s/ray
Raymond J. Norton
1513 Bordeaux Place
Norfolk, VA 23509-1313
(757) 623-1644
Posted : 2011-02-10 10:03
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
Ray, I hope Vietnam will not be forgotten. I do believe at least half the boomers were among the ones that protested the rest of us being there. The va Hospitals that are having problems now, I'd say are the ones that have the boomer protesters still working for them, and hope that most are close to retiring now. Can't recall which va hospitals are involved, but one or more are on the verge of being shut down until they can be brought up to proper va Hospital standards. I am among the ones that have cancelled procedures from them until they are corrected. I do hope it is soon. Maybe some of the snow we recieved during this latest storm will be gone in a few days. Unfortunately, I believe several more are coming behind the one that just went through. All stay warm, and Dry. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Posted : 2011-02-10 13:25
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
Allyn:
My daughter, a Junior in High School, complains that I had it easy in history class.
That's because she has to study the Vietnam war and I did not.
The war will not be forgotten.
/s/ray
Raymond J. Norton
1513 Bordeaux Place
Norfolk, VA 23509-1313
(757) 623-1644
Posted : 2011-02-20 07:30
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
Ray, its Great that the History of the Vietnam War is being taught in High School now. I still say when the va made me go get a Bachelors in late '89, for the next 4-1/2 years we were not allowed to even mention Vietnam. I got a few words in, but largly had to keep the mouth shut. Hope most of the flower children have retired by now. I know they were still there then. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Posted : 2011-02-20 11:51
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
Ray Norton;31953 wrote: Allyn:
My daughter, a Junior in High School, complains that I had it easy in history class.
That's because she has to study the Vietnam war and I did not.
The war will not be forgotten.
Ray we did have easy in history classes then there was much less of it:D
Posted : 2011-02-20 21:54
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
1chuck, there wasn't Vietnam then either. Think that was what she was talking about. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.(posted at 22:05, not 21:05).
Posted : 2011-02-22 22:05
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
My English teacher in my senior year in High School was a Marine Infantry Officer in Korea. He even brought an M1 to class one day. Can you imagine a teacher doing that today. His influence definitely contributed to my joining the Corps even though I had wanted to be a Marine since I was about 5 years old. My Dad was a Navy Chief, Combar Air Crewman, in WW11 and the bases we were stationed on always had Marines on the gates and I used to hang out at the Marine Barracks at Barbers Point, Hawaii. The Marines kind of adopted me and I would listen all their tales and knew I wanted to be like them
Posted : 2011-03-04 07:15
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
Ray Norton;31953 wrote: Allyn:
My daughter, a Junior in High School, complains that I had it easy in history class.
That's because she has to study the Vietnam war and I did not.
The war will not be forgotten.
We need to know what they are teaching them about Viet Nam! A few years ago, my daughter came home from school and ask me why we lost the war. I had to straighten her out about who did what and who lost. The history books have a convient way of laying the blame on the military. After all, the books are writen by the same people who were protesting.
Clear to turn sir:eek:
Posted : 2011-03-04 10:48
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History-the media
Crew46, I need to let you know I was watching the DIS channel, and old man Giap,(the General of them), himself said he could not understand why they had stopped the bombing of Hanoi, because they were within 2-3 days of surrendering to the South, but the media, and the fairy tails with the marching, and anti war demonstrations caused them to hold out a little longer. Had it not been for them, the South would have Won, and it wouldn't have been in vain. That was after the ground forces, and 46's, hueys, 53's, and all were pulled out. We did not loose the war, we fought to a stand still, and left. But like I said had they kept on Bombing the North, and Hanoi, they certainly would have LOST it. I straighten a number of people out about we loosing the war. We left 2 years before the north over ran them. Just 2-3 more days of bombing would have won it, but nixon or who ever was in then, AND congress wouldn't let them have the money to keep on bombing. I've seen it twice now. Please tell your Daughter about that. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Posted : 2011-03-04 11:43
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History
Also, THANK YOU jane fonda! Also, all of your followers! May that flying fickle finger of fate enlighten you to reality with a prod up your anal cavity by a VIET NAM VETERAN DOCTOR. You Dumb S*ns of Bi**hes and Ba***ards.
!
Posted : 2011-03-06 16:13
Re: Vietnam: Our place in US History-media
Larry, the media was right there with her. It came from the top North Generals mouth, they would have surrendered in less than 2-3 days had they,(the media) not wrote, and prosted against it. I just watch FOX network now. They are about the only tell it like it is news org. still going. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.
Posted : 2011-03-06 17:26
