Opening the Association

Gunny Mack, Gunny Powell and Jardo,

To you I say this. Would you have our history die with us? The history we have worked so hard to collect and to record correctly?
When the last two of us drink from the Tontine, the Association will end. With that our website will shut down and we will be forgotten? Do you think the teachers in our schools are going to teach the children our history as it actually happened? Or would we be remembered as “baby killers and drug addicts”? There are very few people like Allyn Hinton and Jim Hatch out there teaching our children the real story of Marine helicopters in Vietnam. Once we are gone we can expect that our role in the history of Vietnam and the Cold War will be forgotten or at best distorted.
As Roger Herman said, if the Association was to change our name and membership qualifications, we will continue to maintain our identity as Vietnam Veterans. Our logo would still be the UH-34 that flew in Vietnam and our by-laws would still say that the Association was founded by Marine Corps helicopter pilots that flew together in Vietnam. Amended to include crewmembers and then all helicopter personnel, Corpsmen, Flight Surgeons and Chaplains as well. If amended again it would include all Marine Corps Helicopter personnel who served in a combat situation.
We will not be losing our identity as Vietnam Veterans if we choose to allow all Marine helicopter personnel who served in combat to join our Association, but will be doing what Marines have done since 1775. We will be keeping the faith, carrying the torch, remembering and honoring our brothers who passed before us.
I don’t understand how a Marine could see what our young Marines are going through in Iraq (as well as Afghanistan, Grenada, Panama, Bosnia and Somalia) and say they are not good enough or do note rate to be a part of us. What it all comes down to is that we are Marines. Not Vietnam Marines, not Iraq Marines, but Marines first and foremost. Marines who volunteered to go to war and carried the torch from the previous generation. I personally, in good conscious, could not tell a brother Marine who flew in combat that they are not worthy to join our Association just because they didn’t serve in Vietnam. As the poem by Michael Norman says, these are the Marines who will “have carried my reputation, the memory of me.” These Marines are our legacy.

As I said in my earlier post we ALL have two things in common, one, service in the United States Marine Corps and two, combat service. Our fellow Marine helicopter crews that served in Beirut, Grenada, Persian Gulf, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo and Desert Storm and Marines serving now in Afganistan and Iraq all have those things in common also.
It should never be forgotten that Viet Nam Veterans started this organization. Just as it should never be forgotten that you all were Marines also. Just like the younger guys we are talking about. Thank you all for letting me put my two cents in.

Chris Breaux
Crewchief UH-1N, CH-53D
HML-767, HMH-362, HMM-261, HMH-461

Members

I felt honored to be accepted as a member of this organization after having participated in WWII VMTB-232 Gp, the VFW & the HMX-1 reunions. All were Marines, some of us served in all three conflicts, WWII, Korea & Vietnam + some ops. Never ocurred to me that anyone in those conflicts needed to produce a purple heart or other proof of being a hero to qualify. Being a Marine and have done his duty in whatever the mission required was adequate. I fully agree with the proposal to accept our brothers that share the title Marine & Helicopters & combat . Not sure what the fuss is about Airforce, Navy & Army being members. Expect they had some connection that at least earned them Honorary membership. I know several Marines that were later in the Army , Navy etc after their Marine service & this certainly should not disqualify them if their prior service was as stated in this Gp. I served with the USAF Advisory Gp in Vietnam 4 years as VNAF Advisor Test Pilot after having served in MAG16 prior to retirement. Than again with the MAG-36 rotating Sqds for 14 years 1973-1987 as Senior Sikorsky Rep . I was certainly proud to serve with all these generations of Marines & as stated before felt that they were my sons & brothers!! (some of them I did serve previously with their fathers). Apolagize for the long winded oratory but appreciate the opportunity to be able to say it. Semper Fi PM

TWO 2 ONE~~!

As of 1300 6/25/04 the vote to change the name is running 2 to 1 in favor~! SAD, another "elite" website gone, another era of Marines gone~! 35 years ago, I was in VIETNAM sharing the combat experience with Marines like me, giving my all & returning to America who "shut me out". All I have left is my brothers who shared the same experiences as I did. In 1998 when I joined, I was excited~! I found Marines who I could relate to & understood what I was talking about. In 2000 I attended the reunion in San Diego,
impressive~! Now membership has changed, for the worse by letting in other branches of the service & civilians. SAD DAY~!

Most of our fighting men & women of today were NOT even born yet when we were fighting!
They do not understand, nor will ever relate
to our mission, our concerns & our fears of coming back to "the world" & being spit upon.

Our "HISTORY' will continue on without us by historians, books & pictures. But our personal feelings of being in VIETNAM will never be shared by todays Marine.

'I WILL WRITE NO MORE ON THIS SUBJECT"

Respectfully

I was a member of a VFW post, which I won't mention the name, who allowed anyone to enter in. It was an open post and anyone could come in and buy a drink. I was taken back by the people who came in and had no regard for those who were members, or even cared about the organization itself. Yes, the VFW made money and that was their motive of survival. They were just like any bar you wanted to enter in any other city. What is uniqueness? Is it important? Will we lose our uniqueness by opening it up to others?

I have read all the remarks. I must say I am divided on how I feel. On the one hand I see how we should keep our future by opening it up to others, but on the other hand it is not always a bad thing when we die out. I believe history will always lack something and not be told exactly after those who made it die out. My Dad, WWII vet, who died recently, had a lot of history die when he died. I think I am the only one who knows a lot of what he went through because I took the time to talk with him about it. Will I pass that on, well, not all of it, because some of it died with him.

I plan on staying in Popasmoke as long as I can sit down and have a drink, a good reunion with friends, and add what I can to improve it to the best of my ability. I don't want to see comrades leave because of politics. I think we might lose something of our uniqueness if we open it up to others, but as long as we can stay together as a team we will always be on the winning side of any disagreement and keep our own uniqueness. If you think about it we are individually unique in that each squadron has it's own hootch at every reunion with it's own unique way of doing what they want, yet they share a common reunion. Maybe we can keep that going no matter who joins in with their hootch. The United States will only fall, as Lincoln once said, from within (basically put, but that was his meaning). It looks like I am in it until they drag my ugly body out and throw it in the ground. The bottom line, I want everyone to stay in the organization, even if it changes, with that, SEMPER FI, Always Faithful, I LOVE THOSE WORDS.

Since Popasmoke is allowing Marines of today join the ranks I don't think combat should be a requirement to join. Ever Marine that was part of Marine helicopters should be allowed to join. How many times did a squadron deploy to put out a fire somewhere and with the ships just being off shore solve the problem with out firing a shot. The Marines in those squadrons where ready to give all if called on to do so but did not earn any Air Crew Combat Wings. I say again if we are going to open the ranks it should be for all Marine helicopter people , past, present and future. SF

But sounds like the HEAD SHELD has made thier minds up and it's their show.

Top A,
Couldn't agree more.

Class of 67'

I thought long and hard about posting a reply - I couldn't resist.

I recently received a letter from the reunion committee at my (old) High School. They were trying to float the idea of consolidating all of the classes into one BIG reunion. The reasoning was that by using that format, they could put together a bigger, better event.

After several months on rather contentious conversation we came to the conclusion that the event would be a huge cluster - - - -, having 30 separate groups wanting nothing to do with the others. We (I), have nothing in common with the Class of 1999.
I don't like the music, don't like the attitude and find myself diametrically opposed to most of they're views. It wouldn't work.

I am a Marine Frequent Wind Vet and was drawn to this site by the words MARINE and VIETNAM. You fella's are an exclusive group of Marine Vietman Veterans, born and raised in a different ttime with different values and different experiences. We all talk about the old farts at the VFW and they're unwillingness to accept the new blood as members - I think it may have something to do with shared experiences, shared hardships and shared loss. It's your organization - I think there something to be said for exclusivity - you earned it.

Renaming the Association

First of all, let me say that it hurts to see my brothers fighting with each other. We fought side by side in Viet Nam, and that is where the fighting should be left.

It is my understanding that this is a proposal, not a directive. We should be able to debate the issue without coming to the conclusion that it has already been decided.

I feel the change would be good for several reasons, and don't think we have to lose our unique identity.

Within the "USMC Combat Helicopter Association" we could have the Viet Nam Division, the Desert Storm Division, the Persian Gulf Division, etc. If you want to remain separated from any other division, it is your choice.

I am proud and honored that our younger brothers in Afghanistan and Iraq have come to us asking for help with information on the way we did things in Nam, and also that the sons and daughters of our fallen brothers have come to us looking for information about the fathers they never knew.

It is important to keep our history alive, and what better way than with fellow Marines? They may not be from the same era, but they share that common bond. Semper Fi

Bruce "Howdy" Mayor
HMM-161 ('69-'70)

Keep Ole Name

Gentlemen:
I think that the name and orginal organization stay as it was first designed. We have all been in places that looked done on the Viet Nam Vets. We have to keep this piece of history. Many of us are dropping every month. Also I am one of those Marines that had service in other services. I was wounded in the Corps; and not allowed to reenlist. I left the Corps and was immediately accepted by the US Air Force Active Reserve. I ended up as a load
master on C-141 air craft with 62d Military Air Lift Wing, Mchord AFB. Due to cut backs the airforce dropped the active flying reserve componet of the 62d Wing. I then joing joined the US Army; again welcomed because of the Marine back ground. I spent 12.5 years in the Army, from playing Sovieet Soldier at National Training Center. To Walter Reed Army Medical Center, to Europe as a "Special Courier" and several years working for the Ass't Secretary of Defense, Health Affairs. Total federal service in excess of 28 years.During retirement I participated in the First Gulf war by helping to provide medical coverage of Marines' Sailors, and the Army. Now I try to keep busy working with our
homeless and underserved veterans. Have a great day.
John Bell (Spook)
Strawn,Tx 76475
HML-167, H&MS-16, VMGR-152, HQ G1 !st MAW
3bn 9th Marines
USAFR 62d MAW C141
US ARMY Retired
Federal Civil Service
Civil Employment

Having been a member of this Assoc. since 1997, a prior Board Member and (3) time Squadron Coordinator, I can't express the part this group has played in filling a void in my psyche. Some have expressed the opinion that our ranks should be kept exclusionary, restricted to those who served in Vietnam. Many of us encountered that same attitude from the VFW. I submit that if we take that course, we'll end up like the Shakers. The obscure religious group from the 1800's that bred, or rather unbred themselves out of existence! As was the case in WWII, and Korea, we had and have a rich history of accomplishment, sacrifice, courage, and honor in our service in Vietnam, but so to do those who have carried the torch after us, as we carried it for those who went before. We all know that during our time, we didn't give a damn about politics. The most important things to us were our squadron, our buddies, and the grunts we served. Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan, or Iraq, the pucker factor is the same. The courage, honor, commitment, tragedy, and agony that we shared, is now being shared by those Marines who follow us. Some posts have indicated that todays Marines can't relate to what we experienced. Bull! I see this as an opportunity to keep this Assoc. viable, and in the hands of those who most certainly can relate. As a previous post stated, the operant words being Marine, Combat, Helicopters. As we have carried the memory and traditions of those who preceded us, i.e., from fighting the Barbary corsairs in the battle of Tripoli, the Battle of Blandensburg, the battle of the Castle of Chapultepec and the Halls of Montezuma, the capture of Fort Fisher in the Civil War, the Boxer Rebellion, Belleau Wood, Guadacanal, the Solomons, the Gilberts, the Marshalls, the Marianas, Palaus, the Phillipines, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Korea, Pusan, Inchon, the Chosin Resevoir, Lebanon, the Dominican Republic in 1965, Vietnam, TET, Khe Sahn, Grenada, Panama, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, and Iraq, have all become part of the Marine pantheon. I have no doubt these young Marines will carry our memory also. The proposed change not only honors them, but we honor ourselves by fully including them. If the Tontine never gets opened, so be it! I kinda like the thought of a Marine carrying my "memory" for as long as there's a Corps! Let these young warriors in!

Semper Fi,

USMC / COMBAT HELICOPTER ASSOCIATION

Guys -

It is obvious from all of the replies on this thread, that you have all received and read the latest Pop A Smoke newsletter. Unfortunately, some of you seem to have read something different than what was printed and jumped to some erroneous conclusions.

As the author of the newsletter piece, let me clarifly a few points to those of you who disagree with the concept of the name change of the organization and the allowing in (as full fledged members) of those Marine combat helicopter aircrews who have been and are continuing to carry on our tradition...

1. The name of our organization has changed three times since its inception in 1986. This is not the first time as some have stated.

2. I am not proposing allowing in members from all other services.

3. The name "Pop A Smoke" doesn't go away, nor does our logo sticker with the "smiley '34" on it. Only the word "Combat" gets substituted for the word "Vietnam."

4. Incidentally, for those who have not noticed before, when I made up the original logo design, the background was specifically created to be a replica of the South Vietnamese flag. That doesn't change. Our Vietnam origins will live on in the logo.

5. Were we to implement this change, by vote of the membership, the Association would still continue to be run by those of us who started and have continued to run the organization...the Vietnam vets...until we are all gone.

6. Hundreds of thousands, no millions, of manhours have been put into the building of this organization by a relatively few. Do you really want to see it disappear when we do? I think not.

7. Just because we fought in Vietnam, does that make us any better than any other Marine who has fought to defend this country...whether we are talking about our fathers in WWII at Guadalcanal, Iwo, etc. or our sons in Iraq and Afghanistan...and other battlefieds soon to follow. Did we get a raw deal when we fought in Vietnam and when we came home? Without a doubt we did...but get over it and get on with your life. **** happens...I don't like losing either.

8. We are in WWIII, in my opinion, and it will continue until such time as the Islamic extremists are completely taken out. It will be a long war and we are going to lose a lot of troops and civilians.

9. I challenge all that would oppose this idea of opening up the Association to fellow Marine combat helicopter pilots and aircrew to do this...Look one of them directly in the eye and tell them they are not worthy of belonging to a group that was started by fellow Marines just like them, but just happened to have fought in a different war. The bond that ties us all will not change, and the nucleus of the organization will continue to be the Vietnam vet...until we are all gone. And we are losing a lot of guys these days. We are not that far behind the passing of the WWII generation.

10. Finally, I would urge all who are truly interested and want to get involved in their own Association, to attend the annual BOD meeting that will be held in Reno on Wednesday, July 7th in the afternoon at the Reno Hilton. It is open to all members. If you really want to be a part of the solution and not part of the problem, get involved. As was said early by one of our members in the forming of our group when some had complaints of one sort or another..."Where were you when the page was blank?"

Semper Fi,

Rog

Bravo zulu
Roger

Outstanding wrap-up, Duke. The Marine Corps is forever, and we are immortal while the long green line goes on.

Semper Fidelis !!!

Roger, Roger

I am all for the change, and remember as much as things change the more they remain the same. We are Marines, just because we were in Vietnam and they had war in a country of a different name, it's still the same.

Semper Fi, K.D. Logue 1stSgt USMC (Ret)

Include Korea Helo Folk also

If the name is going to be changed to combat, then you must include Helo folks from the Korean era. HMR 161 was the first Marine Helo sqd. to serve in combat along with VMO 6. I can vividly remember carrying combat troops into zones and recieving heavy ground fire. No different that what I expierenced in my two tours in Vietnam. I would prefer to remain the same, but if we change we must add Korea vets also!!

Well, here goes nothing

I just can't let this get by with a comment. You all talk about helocopters but some of us worked the combo line "uh-1e, cobra, and OV-10. I am a Bronco Buster. We lived in the same hooches at marble, we worked out of the same hanger, and shared the same line. HML-167, HML-367, and VMO-2. When my birds were out we worked what ever was next. Jardo tought me the huie at New River and I took on the cobra because the Sgt. Mjr. said so. I know and except that as a fixed winger , I am only tollerated. Like the little boy that went to the circus said "I'm just so glad to be here".
I come to the reunion for VMO-2 and the cross over built into our squadrons. KD from VMO-6 was my XO at Danang, Hogie with the 46's hung me out a window in New River. Hell, I slept with most of you before I got married, how close we got to be? I got the **** 3 times in a tour and a half , one in country and 2 in Ubon, so sharing is part of our connection. I must say that I am no longer interest in sleeping with you's, because your feet stink, and all I'm interested in sharing is the memories.
So what am I trying to say here? If we increase the ranks do we not dilute the memories, that we all hold so dear. Don't get me wrong, I think this generation of brothers are as good as they come. When they get to be 56 "oh my" they should have a bunch like we have to shoot the breeze with.
When I loose one brother because of (feelings) my life is deminished. I have concluded that I will never find all the guys that worked with and for me on the line, so you's guys are just going to have to take their places.
Roy

viet vets

i was so happy to find this org.back in 99' after looking for years to find some place that the vietnam helo vets had a common
bond this was it ... i spent a long time looking for fellow sqd.
members old and new this is where i found them ....
i truly believe that this is OUR site and ORQ.....
the friends ive rejioned in tall tales with and the common
ground we understand, the feeling the times long spent......
granted our new breed of helo vets desreve the honors they they gained ..... BUT OURS ARE OURS AND SHOULD REMAIN SO !!

WE ARE A RARE BREED LETS KEEP IT SO

USMC Vietnam Helicopter Association

Our "Association" is already open to any/all Marines. I've talked to OIF (Operation Iraqi Freedom) Marines; they're sharp, brave, genuine heroes and young. They're our future; our 21st Century Marine!

We know our Vietnam-era aircraft and combat missions made us who we are today, just as their aircraft and combat missions make them who they are. We are the same: Marines; and yet, we are different! Our USMC modern technology has assured them of even greater success on their battleground.

Which means, we can always share about beans, bullets and bandages, just ask our Old Corps Honcho, Paul Moore. He's a career Marine who's been in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. But, he chose us, the Vietnam Helicopter Association. Why? Because we're different; just attending one of our Reunions makes it obvious to the most casual observer.

We'll always welcome new Marine Members (Vietnam-era, or otherwise). We will even swap lies (the first liar doesn't have a chance) with the younger Marines until our last old Popasmoke Vietnam Veteran goes to "guard the streets of Heaven".

I believe, then, and only then, our remaining non-Vietnam "Popasmoke" brothers can have our "Popasmoke" website (Wally, you'll probably still be here...) and can creat a new "USMC Combat Association Name" complete with a "Change of Command/Colors and drink our Tontine" ....but until then....We will always be Marines, Vietnam, Helicopters.

BOD, Keep us as USMC/Vietnam Helicopter Association, and know, we will always welcome our "brothers".....No sweat, G.I., payday soon....
Semper Fi.....

Think about your squadron's reunion tent, bar, beer, chairs, tables set up. In walks a current Marine, in flight suit, sporting your old squadron's patch as his current one. What do you do? Shun him? I do not think so! You want to know what's going on now, how has the equipment changed, what about the guns, rules of engagement, and so on. But this takes nothing away from your interaction with fellow Nam vets, it adds to it. My squadrons, for the most part are gone, VMO's. I qualify for the Helo/Combat designation, Hueys first tour, OV-10's second. I have seen the reception that our on duty Marines have received during a reunion. It has been great but sparse because there were so few there and no VMO types. I think that those who have enjoyed those contacts would agree that we need more of it. The Pop a Smoke union will remain a chiefly Vietnam organization until we all die out, but would it not be great if we left a place where other helo Marines can continue to get together and swap stories and offer others remembrances of friends lost. Hay, this is the best Marine Corps site on the web. But the reunions are even better. I think the newly proposed name is sexy. Like the "Combat" part. Always thought I was in some of that.

Lanny

Everyone is talking an article in the latest Newsletter. Last one I got was Spring 2004. What is the date on the "NEW" one?

Vietnam/Combat

As a member of this organization I have contributed little other than membership fees. I have gotten more from it than I can ever put into words. No matter what happens...I am a proud member! I hope that those who have expressed intent to leave will reconsider..no matter what the outcome. Yes, I'm proud of the squadron I served in, HML-167, as everybody here is. Our age seems to me to be the only differance, none of us had anything to do with when we were born and only our birth date determines where we served. Please remove one vote for undecided and place it in the "Combat" column. Welcome to all my brothers and Semper Fi!

USMC/COMBAT HELICOPTER

Gentlemen:

Usually I jump into these arguments with gun's blazing only to be way off target. Roger and Jay Dee, not one of us consider ourselves "better" than the current young Marines flying our old air frames. Perhaps it is our "Old Airframes" that make us jealous of these youngsters. Look at "Vietnam Reflections". Look at us 35 years ago. We are our sons and daughters.

Perhaps we worry that these young warriors will think of us as we did our "Lifer" 32+ year old Majors and ancient Lieutenant Colonels. There are many reasons to oppose change of what we created but there are just as many reasons to let "Popasmoke" morph into the future.

Look at our organization as it is today. How many of us would deny those floating 20 miles off shore (in the Gulf of Tonkin) admittance to our hallowed organization? None of us. They have melded into our organization and have been with us since 1988. Our Vietnam motto "...if you are not in the zone you are not in the war." is more symbolic than actual. Usually we would apply this saying to those "combat" pilots who dropped their bomb loads from 42,000 feet or the C-130 pilots who did their monthly 12 touch and go's at Da Nang for their combat pay. Our brothers who floated at the ready would have launched without hesitation. They would even (as did George "Chip" Perrrault) sneak into country to fly a day or two of combat.

I doubt I will live long enough to see the last two Marines from the original USMC/Vietnam Pilots Reunion Association drink from the Tontine (at this time my challange is to out live my new refrigerator's 15 year compressor warranty). I know our younger new "combat" aircrew members will honor and respect and remember the last Vietnam era combat aircrew's passing. We must change, we must ask the veterans of Beirut, Grenada, Panama, Mogadesu, Desert Storm, Bosnia to join with us as men who have shared the smell, challenge and adrenalin of combat.

Without them we will one day become another run-down VFW or AmVets hall with a bunch of drooling old men in polyester pants and Wal-Mart velcro sneakers.

I vote name change. I vote "combat".

Semper Fi,

Jay Em

Well said, Jim. Thanks.

While we old-timers are still around, we'll talk Vietnam. Fine. But the issue really is combat with helicopters, Marine type.

Association Name

I don't post too often, but this controversy on expanding our membership is worthy of comment. I have met Marines who earned their Combat Air Crew Wings in engagements other than Viet Nam. I also have a son who served with MAG-21. All of these Marines that I have met held the highest respect for Viet Nam Vets, especially Air Crew and Pilots. These Marines were truly interested in what we did and I don't think for a minute that they will let our history fade away. I agree wholeheartedly with Roger that we shold open up our organization to them so we can continue to live through them.

Semper Fi,
John A Oubre
HMM-361