Harrier?

Could someone educate "the lady"?

What is a "harrier"?

Mustang . .. .:)

Looks like an "A" model, the training wheels are close to the wing tips. The "B" model has the landing gear in the middle of the wing

Re: Harrier?

Originally posted by mstngjan
Could someone educate "the lady"?

What is a "harrier"?

= %@#!^!%&!! 😮 = ommited

"I could be one"...I suppose 🙂 I mistakingly thought Jan was heckling me, and got curt with her here, I'm retracting my previous statement. And let that be a lesson to me 😉

Yes, Gentlemen, please educate us on the "Harrier"
Models A,B & C. In one picture I see wheels at wingtips, yet the "in flight" photo shows wing wheels more inboard of the tips.
Someone mentions troubles they had, what exactly were the troubles?. And I see them there on USS Inchon; I had heard a rumor once that the landing surface would sometimes melt from the heat of the Harriers exhaust. Later, I also heard that these birds carried water to cool the exhaust. What could you and what could you not land on? Please elaborate.
sno_mann:cool:

 

Thanks Ed

Ed;
Thats what I was looking for, Thanks!
sno_mann

Another shot of a Harrier model "A", aboard USS Inchon.
😎

Harrier

I don't think Snoman checked your bio. A Harrier is a VSTOL or more commonly called a "jump jet" as it can ascend like a helicopter and then transition to a jet. Used for CAS and bombing. I believe it has Rolls Royce engines and has had a number of maintenance problems over the years. They have been going overhaul.

Guys, please correct me if I am wrong as I was an S-3 Puke!!!

LZ

Len,

Jan is the lady wanting to be educated. She wasn't heckling I guarantee you

S/F

John

Re: ???

Jan;
Now there you go being a nice person and all. I thought you were refering to me as "the lady" and asking the rest of the guys to educate me!. I still go off half cocked, blame it on P.I...(Parris Island)(Marine Corps installed-no updates available:-)
Please except my apologies Jan, and let me tell you what little I know about the Harrier. I'm sure more of these fine veterans will chime in and set me straight, as I know little about the airwingers birds of war. Being a ground pounding radio operator.(Life expectancy of 2.5 seconds in battle with a ten foot whip) I would occasional be informed in a mock battle that we had just been killed by an airstrike, then to find out minutes later that it was a mistake; that "particular plane" had been shot down 3 minutes before it got to me. I really enjoyed those excersizes...
The Harrier is a jet aircraft capable of verticle take off. It makes them well suited for LPH carriers/Ships(LPH=launch pad helicopter) Thats about all I know about them, but I'm sure a more learned individual will opt-in with some really neat details about these aircraft. So, there you go men, educate us about the Harrier. sno_mann 😎

jump jet

Its mostly likely a "A" or "C" model, does not appear to be a raised canopy as on "B"'s and has the outboard rigger wheels

<smile>

Len . .. not a problem . . (just put me in shock there for a minute .. ) .. apology accepted .. thank you

The Lady Mustang

Re: <smile>

Originally posted by mstngjan
Len . .. not a problem . . (just put me in shock there for a minute .. ) .. apology accepted .. thank you

The Lady Mustang

😎 Semper fi, means forever.

British Aerospace GR. Mk.7 "Harrier" (AV-8B)
(c) E.J v. Koningsveld U.K.

That's what I like.

Before the 'original', in this case gal, can post a reply to the reply, the Brothers come to the defense, apologies are made, and all is well.

Keep'um coming, Mustang Lady.

.

WHAT KIND OF HARRIER

The first Harrier picture is of an AV-8A of Marine Attack Squadron, VMA-231, (can tell by the Ace of Spades). The AV-8C's were in VMA-542. Both the "A" and "C" were powered by a Rolls Royce "F402-RR-402" engine. There were earlier dash numbers, but, the -402 was the last except for a few -404's mainly for testing (for those who may really be picky).

That earlier model of the AV-8B that is posted was powered by the Rolls Royce "F402-RR-404" and subsequently the "F402-RR-406" and when they were reman'd to the "Radar" version, the "F402-RR-408" was installed.

Any applicable "alfa" character was intentionally omitted for all aforementioned engines.

Alfa Golf

Harrier

This is probably more than you want to know and I am writing from memory but here goes.

The Marine Corps became interested in the Harrier when I was a Boeing Tech Rep but being British I was expected to know all about it anyway. I wrote to British Aerospace and they sent me loads of info.

The Harrier is an attack airplane that uses swivelling nozzles to divert the thrust from its single jet engine to take off vertically. It can carry a much bigger load if it has a short take off run. The pilot starts the takeoff run with the nozzles pointed directly to the rear and at the appropriate time rotates the nozzles to a position (calculated beforehand) that diverts part of the jet thrust downwards allowing the aircraft to take off and climb out at a very low airspeed. The rolling takeoff in a helicopter is an exact analogy. Even a few hundred feet can double the payload that the airplane can carry. What happens operationally is the airplane does a rolling takeoff but lands back vertically since it is now much lighter.

The airplane has been around for a long time, so long ago that the original prototype was known as the Hawker P1067. Hawker built the WW2 Hurricane ( there were twice as many Hurricanes as Spitfires in the Battle of Britain). The Chief Designer of the Harrier was Sydney Camm, his last airplane. His first was the Fury, a pretty biplane fighter that would not have looked out of place in WW1. The P1067 was funded by a Nato grant (read US money) and was first flown by a Tri Partite squadron, commanded by an American, with participation by the Brits and I think the Germans. This proved the concept. The airplane was then put into production as the Harrier, initially for the Royal Air Force.

The USMC became very interested in the airplane in the late 60s because they believed it would make the Corps independent of long runways ashore. Since essentially the US had financed the development of the aircraft it was in a strong position to get what it wanted. As you can imagine, the Air Force fought it tooth and nail but the USMC finally won. McDonnell Aircraft got the contract to build the Marine Corps version, the AV-8. McDonnell became McDonald Douglas and are now part of Boeing.

The engine was designed by Bristol Engines, in Bristol, UK. They were taken over by Rolls Royce.

When the Marines started flying the airplane they evolved a few tricks that the Brits hadn't thought of. The engine nozzles can be rotated forward past the vertical position, to act as a speed brake. This was designed for use on approach. But guess what, the Marines used it in dogfights to slow the airplane down and let it fly slower and turn faster than it's conventional opponent. Shades of "Hover Aft". If the opponent isn't very careful and concentrates too much on the Harrier, it can depart in a major way. Unlike what happened with Hover Aft, the USMC asked MDD to strengthen the airframe to allow the pilot to do it legally since they knew they would do it anyway. The RAF certainly thought that way. The Marines called it Viffing, for "Vectoring in Forward Flight".

The Brits used the Harrier in the Falklands War, in the CAP role, using both Royal Navy and Royal Air Force pilots, flying off helicopter carriers. They had plans to fly off container ships but didn't actually do it. The Brits used everything the Marines had discovered and what they knew themselves. It's amazing how combat sharpens the mind. The Brits were surprised at how well the Argentinians flew but one of the Brits said "I don't know why we were surprised, some of the best Race Car Drivers in the world are from Argentina".

Its major weakness is the single engine. If it fails you are cooked and in certain flght regimes the pilot has to eject instantly to stand any chance. But it is unique and it can do things no other airplane can.

Harrier Update

www.history.navy.mil/planes/av8.htm

The above will take you to the Naval Historical Center which tell all you want to know and more about the Harrier.

Correction to last post:
Prototype was Hawker P1127, first flown in 1961.

TriPartite Squadron was established in 1965.

The airplane was largely financed by US Gov't money which facilitated its acceptance by the USMC. I guess the US after seeing what the Brits could do decided to move them to the US. This caused the great 'Brain Drain' in the mid 60s of which I was a part. They were scraping the bottom of the barrel when they got to me. In 1966 Boeing alone hired more Engineers in the UK than graduated from all the Engineering schools in Britain.

The increase in performance from the original airplane, called the Kestral to today's AV-8B is remarkable.

Model Empty weight Max Gross Engine Thrust

Kestral 9,000 lb 15,500 lb 11,000 lb

AV-8B 12,800 lb 31,000 lb 20,280 lb

The max weight for vertical take off for the AV-8B is 18,900 lb.

The original plan for the Harrier was for it to be established ashore, close behind the front line where it could loiter shut down on the ground on any piece of flat ground. It could then fire up and take off vertically on demand. I've seen pictures of this in exercises, especially at Camp LeJeune. I've never heard of it being used that way in real combat. I guess the idea of a defined front line went out with Vietnam. The increase in payload with even a short take off run is so dramatic that the VTO mode is rarely used. Landing is another story. The airplane is light and Vertical Landing is a very useful operation. The ground erosion from the engine exhaust on unprepared ground is dramatic, giving a new meaning to IFR in the dust, which does no great good to the engine.

Below is a picture of Sidney Camm's first design. From that to the Harrier is quite a career. The Fury is credited with 6 kills in WW2, details unknown but that must have been something to see.

John:
Very interesting write-up. I can see the resemblence between the Fury and the Harrier, if you look at the picture real close you can see the three inch piece of string just forward of the windscreen.
The Harrier certainly has come a long way from the days when the standing joke was the way you got to own one was by living in a house on the approach path at Cherry Point.
S/F
Bob

AV8A

Saw one of the earlier 8A's crash at MCAS Beaufort in 77'.
Both pilots punched out right to late -
The Harrier was from VMAT-203 - TAD from Cherry Point.