UH-34 Model.

I too have the same model on the desk here, I thought the gun a MG151 Cannon in the style of the French-Algerian H-34 'Pirate' especially as it has a shield/glacis but it's definitely an M60 at the fwd position, does anyone know if this was a genuine fit 20mm/.50 wise or just artistic licence by the maker?

Regards, Flag track.

H-34 model

George, Flag, it would have been Great for the Crews if they did have had a larger, 50cal, or even a 20mm, than the m-60, but never knew of one having anything else. Thats in our Marine Corps. One of the main reasons I was glad to be on 46's. The 50 cal!! I'd double time mine. No butt plate either, just closed the barrel 2 clicks. Glad I never got caught, that is until I was med-evaced. Then didn't have the chance to open them back up. Many have said I was crazy, but it kept the gooks heads down. Never blew up as I was told they would. Semper Fi, and Ready-APP.

50's on a '34 ???

I've never seen nor heard of this. Can't imagine the airframe on a '34 withstanding the abuse that a MA2 would inflict.
I served with HMM 265 in RVN. We were equipped with aerial 50's.,but
occasionally a ground '50 would show up in the armory.
It was common practice to close up the headspace on these units in flight to approach rate of fire of the aerial models.
Ya just didn't want to get caught.

50's on a 34

Hi Mel. I had heard it was tried, but your right, the vibs were too much I believe, plus the weight of the guns, and ammo. Never knew of two kinds of 50's. I couldn't tell the difference, and closed the head space on all that were on my Birds wether they were Aerial, or ground version. Really, I didn't pay it any mind. I do know the set rate of fire would let the bad boys stand up and shoot back, but you get one going 125-130 plus rounds a minute, and they would tend to want to keep their heads down a bit more. Did burn some barrels out at times, but it was necessary. When were you with 265? I started Flying the 19th of April, and was med evaced on 27 Aug.'69. Spent 2 weeks on Paul davis' #11(Rabbit), the Hoist Bird, and 2 weeks on Gomers #13, the 'Goblin', and had 198 Combats before taking the check ride. They wanted me to learn Paul, and Dons style of Flying before I turned out. Glad I did, as they were both very good Crew Chiefs, and learned well. Then had 3, #14's. Those were very good Birds as they had Droop snoop blades, and the sigma(D) Tail. Thats what we called it anyway. The last day I was in the Squadron, I was going to put a dash 10 engine in for my blown #2, but just as I was hoisting it in, the HAMS shop head came out and jumped all over me, and good. It was a D tail on the Bird, so it would have gone in. He made me drop it to the engine stand, and roll it by myself back in, and get a dash 8. I was going to make a D out of that Bird, but he was hard headed and wouldn't believe it would have fit. It was going in wether it had fit or not. But he out ranked me by 3 stripes. The Hot and Hard Test Hop-take-off was my last Flight. All have good ones. Semper Fi, and Ready-APP.

John Ace Hunt;27550 wrote: Hi Mel. I had heard it was tried, but your right, the vibs were too much I believe, plus the weight of the guns, and ammo. Never knew of two kinds of 50's. I couldn't tell the difference, and closed the head space on all that were on my Birds wether they were Aerial, or ground version. Really, I didn't pay it any mind. I do know the set rate of fire would let the bad boys stand up and shoot back, but you get one going 125-130 plus rounds a minute, and they would tend to want to keep their heads down a bit more. Did burn some barrels out at times, but it was necessary. When were you with 265? I started Flying the 19th of April, and was med evaced on 27 Aug.'69. Spent 2 weeks on Paul davis' #11(Rabbit), the Hoist Bird, and 2 weeks on Gomers #13, the 'Goblin', and had 198 Combats before taking the check ride. They wanted me to learn Paul, and Dons style of Flying before I turned out. Glad I did, as they were both very good Crew Chiefs, and learned well. Then had 3, #14's. Those were very good Birds as they had Droop snoop blades, and the sigma(D) Tail. Thats what we called it anyway. The last day I was in the Squadron, I was going to put a dash 10 engine in for my blown #2, but just as I was hoisting it in, the HAMS shop head came out and jumped all over me, and good. It was a D tail on the Bird, so it would have gone in. He made me drop it to the engine stand, and roll it by myself back in, and get a dash 8. I was going to make a D out of that Bird, but he was hard headed and wouldn't believe it would have fit. It was going in wether it had fit or not. But he out ranked me by 3 stripes. The Hot and Hard Test Hop-take-off was my last Flight. All have good ones. Semper Fi, and Ready-APP.

Was with '165 when deployed to RVN summer of '66.Reassigned '265 Dec.12 '66 & returned CONUS Nov. '67.
HMM 165 had a mixture of ground '50s & M60s in their armory. Some of the crewchiefs opted for '60s because of the headspace issue. Others took their chances with getting caught.
The ground '50 had a set rate of fire of 450-575 rds./min. Probably because infantry units were more likely to exercise sustained bursts.
Aerial '50s had a set rate of 750-850 rds./min. If you adjusted the headspace on these.,I'm not at all surprised that ya smoked a barrel or three.
The two guns were easily distinguished by the cocking levers.
Aerials had a straight pull design,while the ground models had a lever that rotated down & to the rear.Kinda awkward to use too.
We had "A" models & I don't even wanna talk about those head bangin' droop-snoot blades.

34 model

Mike, guess I got it right this time. That is something. Wish the armorer had not found a way to time them down so much, but he had them set on a 60-70 round per minute rate when we were flying in '69. I did close the aerial 50's head space by 2 clicks which doubled what ever rate they were. I know it worked. How he timed them down so low beats me, but that was the firing rate in '69. I had no problems with the droop-snoot blades, as they added more lift, guess I missed knocking the head on them. It was the aerials I had on each mission. Next reunion I get to visit with the armorer, I will find out why they were timed down so much. Thats what he told us the timing was, 60-70 rounds a minute. Not mine, thats for sure. A lot of things had changed by '69, compared to '65-'66. The cost per round may have had something to do with it, but whats money compared to lives. I wouldn't have flown if I had had to use 60's. Semper Fi, and Ready-APP.

M- 60's on CH-46s

When I qualified as a gunner in HMM-165 in January '68, we had M-60's. When flying at any speed you could see the rounds "blow" away with the wind from the airspeed. Not so with the 50's! You could see the foliage and small trees fall as you swept an area with the 50's!! Far away muzzle flash targets were suddenly within range!! Don't recall our armorer, Boudreaux was his name I think, ever messing with us as far as rate of fire. His guns ALWAYS fired well, even the M-60's when we had to use them.

M-60 on 46's

Mike, Joe, I don't believe I'll get in a back and forth on rates of fire on 50's in '66, in 165, or M-60's on 46's in 265 during anytime. I know by '69 the set rate of fire was not much more than a round a sec. on the 50's in 265. It would have been more fun if we did still have a high rate of fire by '69, 500-700 rounds a minute. I said it before, I would not have even looked at a 46 if I had to use an m-60 on it. Had to have been my loss. I timmed mine up to a livable rate of fire, and went on about the Squadron Mission bussiness. Glad you Gentlemen had what you had, but just saying what I had in 265 by '69. Have good ones. Semper Fi, and Ready-APP.

Ace

Ace,
I don't want to do that either. I was just agreeing with you when you said you prefered the .50 cal. I had experience with both, just highlighting that for those that didn't. It's all good!

M-60's and 34's, & Ace

I do agree Joe for sure. I just know for a fact the rate of fire on our 50's by '69 was no more than 1 round a second. Just trying to figure out where the other 6-7 hundred rounds went. Less Birds would have been shot down, as all I had to do just as we were going into the A-Shau, was to run a short burst off, and the even dumest gook certainly left us alone. Didn't want any part of a rapid fire 50. Then, maybe they didn't want to give their posisition away. Most all are entitled to an opinion though. Sure did love the things,(50 cal, and 46). When a chamber would get cherry red, and start cooking off, a quick break of the belt would prevent the right stub wing from being blown off, when in the Gunship configuration,(4-50's, and a 60 on the ramp). By then you were out of the Hot spot, and didn't need it anymore. All, Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

Holy Crap !!!

John Ace Hunt;27578 wrote: I do agree Joe for sure. I just know for a fact the rate of fire on our 50's by '69 was no more than 1 round a second. Just trying to figure out where the other 6-7 hundred rounds went. Less Birds would have been shot down, as all I had to do just as we were going into the A-Shau, was to run a short burst off, and the even dumest gook certainly left us alone. Didn't want any part of a rapid fire 50. Then, maybe they didn't want to give their posisition away. Most all are entitled to an opinion though. Sure did love the things,(50 cal, and 46). When a chamber would get cherry red, and start cooking off, a quick break of the belt would prevent the right stub wing from being blown off, when in the Gunship configuration,(4-50's, and a 60 on the ramp). By then you were out of the Hot spot, and didn't need it anymore. All, Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

We converted our two slicks to gun ships in the spring of '67. Two 50's & 3 60's.
Can't imagine how a '46 would shake & rattle with four of the "big" boys mounted up & spittin' fire.
Never had a 50 cook off.,but it wouldn't surprise me if it got hot enough.
The .30 Browning was notorious for it. The M2 has same basic design.,just bigger & better !!!
Joe & I have spoken about this subject a number of times and are of the same mind about choices in firepower.
I'd kinda like to talk to that armorer of yours."Why would you back the timing off that far ?"

Holly Crap

Thats what I say Mike, Joe. But its a fact. Could be several reasons, the cost of a 50 round, at least 10-20 bucks, and it wouldn't take but a few times at trigger to burn all your ammo up at that high rate, then the burning of the barrels. Didn't take but a box, and a half to get one ,(the reciever), cherry red. I mean like a Glowing Bright Fire engine red, red. I always belted 4-5 boxes together, on each gun, and on a run-a-way you'd have to grab the belt bout a yard away from the gun, and break it as fast as you could, or your hands, and then arms were going to go through the 50 as well. When we devised the Gunship, as several Squadrons did have a strap in mount that you could strap in the middle of the Bird with the Big windows across from each other, and strap it down with nylon straps that would absorbe most of the recoil. It worked with no problems what so ever. I had 38-48 dawn, and dusk Patrol missions before being shot down on 2 July '69, where everything was a free fire zone, and they just should not have been there. The 9th MAB staged an Amphibious Assault on the Beach just South of the big river way South of Marble Mt., and we were in support of them. Could have been the An-Hoi area. The Battallion C.O. was a Col. Doty. He had my Bird as his Command Gunship. He wanted it, so we provided. It was 4 inch aircraft aluminum, braced, and as stated was tied down with 4- 4 inch nylon straps, 2 on each side, and really there wasn't any vibration. Most the time you could use only 2 rounds. The 1st to spot, and the next one right on target and they, the target, would just explode. Then other times it'd take a box or so to wipe them out. It certainly made the armourer mad when we'd come back, to re-fuel, and re-load. We made sure we had 4 gun missions a day. He would have to hump the pallets of 50 cal from the bottom of the Iwo-Jima to the Flight deck. He kept yelling 'Hunt you'd better have targets'. I'd always calm him down by assuring him we did have targets. He was hot many times. Believe thats why he got them to just barely maintain a rate of fire. Just would not work with most of us, as he kept saying 'I know what your doing, and I'm going to catch you'. Before we were set down good he was on the Bird checking head spaces. Like I have said. 'I was never caught, until the day I was picked up off the Marble Mt. runway, med-evaced, and did not have a chance to open the barrels the 2 clicks I'd closed them. Not bad for a Cpl. I do believe if the added 50's were ridgedly mounted as the gunner, and Crew-Chief's gun was, there would have been way to much vibration, but the tie down straps absorbed it all like I have said. That part of my Flying was the most fun. The most important, was the med-evacs we had, as well as the Hoist jobs, re-supplys, take homes, inserts-extractions. I even enjoyed the ship to ship mail runs we'd do quite often, plus the USO shows we'd Fly around. The last two days I had flying was re-supply into LZ-211. We were on our 79th load for the 2 days when #2 gave out slowing down to pickle the 44th load that day. The 25th, we did 35 loads of projectiles, and the 26th, we did 44 loads of the charges the 155's used. I certainly would not change one iota of my Flying, even knowing I'd have to fall all over again. The people we Flew for, and that depended on us, were well worth all the pain, believe me. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

Gun Bird

This is Rocky Darger in front of HMM-262's heavy gun bird used for convoy escort to Khe Sanh!! Had four .50 cal and a '60 on the ramp!

Gun Bird

Thats what they look like alright. Ours,265, had the middle mounts with the guns mounted lower so there was more coverage under the fuel tanks, on each side. My Gun Bird was a #14 as well. I had pictures, but all were destroyed ,21 rolls, as well as the Petri Ft 35 mm camera, in one of the Birds I lost. There are pictures out there from the gunners I had. A number of them had me take pictures of them with the guns in place. I have still secret pictures of when the Bird was shot down, and on the beach, of the 60 mount on the ramp. It would be nice if any of the gunners would send me copies of the pictures I took for them. Like I stated, several Squadrons had mounts for the gunship when needed. Wing frowned on the set up for sure. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

Gun bird

I remember one with the ramp removed and an M-69 cargo strapped to the rear between the bulkheads. Boeing rep John Dulligan had a fit and the ramp went back on!! LOL!

46 sans ramp

......... hmmmmmmmmmmmm

So, the ramp must have been a necessary structural member :eek::cool:;) ..... Joe.

Ramp

Mike,
You betcha!

re: ramp

:D:D:D:D let me "re-phrase" my comment .........

"A necessary structural STIFFENER."

I'm in the process of scanning a bunch of my 'Nam pics and have not yet
run across any of the "fortunate 46" that waited until touch down at Marble,
to shed the aft pylon.

That was one of two I witnessed part company.

I was on night crew at the time and was asleep in my hootch, on the corner
adjacent to the control tower, when an unusual sound woke me up. The sound
was the aft pylon and rotor system grinding itself up on the runway.

I watched the front 2/3rds taxi down the runway on the nose gear and with
the remains of the aft fuselage dragging on the matting.

One lucky crew!

They later parked the remains near the tower and I walked up inside one
night to the cockpit. It was a rather steep climb.

If I recall, I think 410 was just aft of the sponsons.

I found my pic of the 2/3rds of a 46!

Aft Pylon departure

Mike,
It was a definite "no-no" for station 410 longevity to remove the ramp, it was discovered!!! Station 410 being where the aft pylon attaches to the main fuselage, and the point of all the stress! Using the CH-46A (I know some very early "D" models had it too) manual "hover aft" feature to slam into hot LZs in a hurry wasn't good for them either, but it sure helped us live to fight another day at the time we did it!!

I am aware...

...of a couple of AFC's to the '46 aft pylon problem, to wit:

1. Replace manual hover aft with an automatic system.
2. Reinforce station 410.
3. Replace aft transmission with a reinforced model. (The original had three attachment points, the new one had four.)

In my experience I flew models with

a.) One of the above
b.) Two of the abvve
c.) All of the above.
d.) a, b, and c

The answer is d;

Eventually, of course, all AFC's were implimented in all the aircraft.

I do not believe that anyone proved which fix or combination of fixes solved the problem. In any event, the problem was resolved.

Two of the above

Ray,
I spent a lot of time flying and flying in CH-46As with the station 410 mod, which usually included the beefier aft transmission. (Walt Jones can chime in here, 'cause he headed up HMM-262s mod program and knows more about the "A" mod than anyone alive, I believe) None of those "Alphas" had the manual hover aft changed over until they were converted to "Deltas" many years later, at least that's my impression. Anyway, they all flew great and none, that I ever heard about, ever had any aft pylon issues after the "mod". You were the one that made me understand that some "D" models had the manual hover aft, and I always appreciate your input. Please advise if, to your knowledge, I have mispoken here.

More Info

I have flown 46D models with manual hover aft and also D models with the three point transmissions. Eventually, everything got upgraded.

I have also seen D models with the retractable FM antenna and radio (AN/ARC-44) and some with the fixed FM antenna and radio (AN/ARC-54).

In regards to the retractable antenna, who holds the record for the most landings with the FM antenna extended? That record could be held by a squadron, a pilot, a crew chief or all of the above. Who had the idea for that silly thing anyway?

Retractable FM antenna

Well, Ray ............

It did allow you to communicate with the grunts.

We had one on the 53 also, and being an old Avionics hand, I replaced my
share of them. :D:D:D:D:D

BTW --- it can be seen to the right of Rocky Darger's left hip, in the pic above.

Who Me?

It must be the crew chiefs fault! I got so tired of telling the co-pilots and as I remember it was really their only assigned duty