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53 vs 53 midair

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  • #16
    53 Vs. Huey

    Lurch,
    The New River crash from 1967 was a Huey and a '53, not two CH-5s. Is there another incident you're speaking of?
    Semper Fidelis
    Joe


    Phu Bai tower:
    YW-11 for Phu Bai DASC-
    Remember, These are "A" models!
    YW-11 BuNo-151939
    '65 Model CH-46A

    Comment


    • #17
      53 vs 53

      Hi Joe!, yes sir ,the one I started this thread about ,was in the mountains behind santa ana /el toro area between two CH-53 s one plane made a crash landing in a high meadow the other had alpha damage in the bottom of a deep gully or canyon .K.D. proabley(man i'm a lousy speller) knows more of the details than i do !i do remember that the wreckage was brought back to the HMT- 301 area on the S-1 side of the hanger ,hanger #2 @ LTA .i also remember that a piss poor job was done of cleaning up the remains of the cockpit inst panels. and i remember what their flight helments looked like .not pretty!!! SF kc
      non illigitimus carborundumMAF gripe ... deadbugs on windshield...action taken...R&R with live bugs!

      Comment


      • #18
        whoops or oops or aw s#!T

        Originally posted by lurch View Post
        in the fall of 1974 maybe ? seemslike i remember that it was getting dark around1800 or 1900 don't know for sure , i have CRS syndrome !
        now that i think back on this i not sure of the date at all . I may have gotten the years and incidents mixed up with another time I spent in the boonies. this time alone overnight on prado dam where hwys 71 & 91 meet west of the chino hills.i was in good old HMT 301 my pilot was the base C O (who said thanks afterwards) and the problem was a blown garlock seal (aft vert shaft aft xmsn ) that the two sncos in QA said was fine (it was a six ragger) and wouldn't let me down it ! one of them later became a real good friend of mine .not so much the other guy !any way it became a catastrophic leak some where between 6 & 7 thousand feet and we made an emergency landing on the dam. in 1975 i think
        non illigitimus carborundumMAF gripe ... deadbugs on windshield...action taken...R&R with live bugs!

        Comment


        • #19
          The date was February 18 1975, The crash site was in mageska (SP) canyon.

          The A/C with the fatalaties was piloted by Capt. Jim Watson, 1stLt Belai (SP)
          Sgt Cheshire, LCPL Alt.

          The A/C that landed with it's tail rotor on the deck and several feet missing on several of it's main rotor blades was piloted by Capt Les Petty, 1stLt Walton, Sgt Jan White, there was a 1stLt PUI on board for the ride and had brought his super 8 movie camera, and filmed much of the ancident from the lead A/C's point of view.

          R/S K.D Logue
          Last edited by kdlogue; 10-14-2009, 13:33.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: 53 vs 53 midair

            Originally posted by kdlogue View Post
            The date was February 18 1975, The crash site was in mageska (SP) canyon.

            The A/C with the fatalaties was piloted by Capt. Jim Watson, 1stLt Belai (SP)
            Sgt Cheshire, LCPL Alt.

            The A/C that landed with it's tail rotor on the deck and several feet missing on several of it's main rotor blades was piloted by Capt Les Petty, 1stLt Walton, Sgt Jan White, there was a 1stLt PUI on board for the ride and had brought his super 8 movie camera, and filmed much of the ancident from the lead A/C's point of view.

            R/S K.D Logue
            The Sgt Jan White mentioned above was he a dark green Marine? There was a Gysgt. Jan White that was in HMH-362 in the 1980's with me and he was the 53 Line Chief on a Cruise in 1987 with HMM-261. Gunny White taught me the rest of what I know about CH-53D's. He retired as a MSgt while staioned at NAS Alameda with the old RH-53D's the Navy gave the Reserve HMH Squadron. Last time I saw him was Al Jubail in Saudi Arabia During Desert Storm. I was doing govenor matching on one of our N model Huey's when he walked up to me and punched me in the arm to get my attention, I almost hit him in the jaw until I realized who he was.
            Garfield411
            UH-1N and CH-53D
            Crewchief

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: 53 vs 53 midair

              One small observation regards CH53 Hydaulics. No CH53 ever flew without hydraulics!! The main rotor system is far above the load where manual controls would function. The last Sikorsky Helicopter that was possible to fly with the Hydraulic servo off was the H19 . One flight check in the H19 was to switch off the Primary servos & fly manually. The collective was very heavy in that mode but still flyable. Loss of AFCS in the Ch53 meant that the Avionics components ( Gyro imputs) were disconnected to the AFCS servo electronic motors of the AFCS servos . When engaged the imputs would drive the motors which moved the pilot valves on the AFCS servos than the AFCS power pistons moved which in turn drove the pilot valves on the primary servos thus bringing the helicopter back to the position of the flight controls selected by the pilot. The first Sikorsky Helicopter with AFCS was the UH34 or (HUS-1). While in Vietnam with the VNAF Advisory Group We had 130 H34 helicopters. Some were CH34 from the Army which had the Aux servo but no AFCS . In the CH34 there was a staionary attachment (Dummy Motor) where the AFCS motor was on the UH34 & The UH34G, That was a problem I had to solve since the fleet had both systems & the VNAF had no AFCS Test benches Or knowledge on the syatem. When the AFCS system failed it ended in a hardover and no maintenance capability to correct it. I had them center the AFCS motors in the UH34s than remove the AFCS Box entirely. That made the servo motor as a stationary attachment and than having all of the H34/UH34s as manual only. Long winded explanation but felt it might be of interest to some. I know some Marine Pilots flew with VNAF ocassionally & wonderd why there was no AFCS even in the UH34D. I flew several hundred hours (1964/1968) with those mixtures & it was all manual. SF PM

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: 53 vs 53 midair

                Paul,
                Thanks for that clarification....I wondered about flying a '53 w/o hydraulics!
                Semper Fidelis
                Joe


                Phu Bai tower:
                YW-11 for Phu Bai DASC-
                Remember, These are "A" models!
                YW-11 BuNo-151939
                '65 Model CH-46A

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: 53 vs 53 midair

                  I read this thread before I became a member here so it took me a little while to get vetted to respond. In the meantime I did as much research as I could to find out what happen.

                  I left HMT-301 24 Jan 1975. This accident took place on 18 Feb 1975. The aircraft involved were SU-21 and SU-22 according to my research. I qualified as crew chief the day that SU-21 was picked up from overhaul at North Island. I was assigned to the aircraft and it was a very reliable helicopter. I was good friends with both Bill Cheshire and Jan White. LCpl Alt had been my first mech several times.

                  Because the news reporting wasn't very good during that time I didn't hear about the accident until sometime after through a friend that lived across the state from me. He came to visit after you got out and told me about the accident. I was not aware that Jan White had been on the aircraft that landed hard.

                  I had flown with all the pilots involved and remember Leslie Petty particularly. I remember seeing years ago his name in the reporting of the failed rescue attempt of the Iranian hostages. Turns out he was the Co-pilot on the aircraft that collided with the C-130 at Desert One. He and the Pilot were both severely injured in the accident.

                  I flew on SU-21 almost exclusively during my time there. Had I stayed at the base longer the likely hood I would have been on that aircraft that day was very high. But would the planets and stars aligned the same way and I had gone down with the aircraft I guess I will never know.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: 53 vs 53 midair

                    Originally posted by pm3777 View Post
                    One small observation regards CH53 Hydaulics. No CH53 ever flew without hydraulics!! The main rotor system is far above the load where manual controls would function. The last Sikorsky Helicopter that was possible to fly with the Hydraulic servo off was the H19 . One flight check in the H19 was to switch off the Primary servos & fly manually. The collective was very heavy in that mode but still flyable. Loss of AFCS in the Ch53 meant that the Avionics components ( Gyro imputs) were disconnected to the AFCS servo electronic motors of the AFCS servos . When engaged the imputs would drive the motors which moved the pilot valves on the AFCS servos than the AFCS power pistons moved which in turn drove the pilot valves on the primary servos thus bringing the helicopter back to the position of the flight controls selected by the pilot. The first Sikorsky Helicopter with AFCS was the UH34 or (HUS-1). While in Vietnam with the VNAF Advisory Group We had 130 H34 helicopters. Some were CH34 from the Army which had the Aux servo but no AFCS . In the CH34 there was a staionary attachment (Dummy Motor) where the AFCS motor was on the UH34 & The UH34G, That was a problem I had to solve since the fleet had both systems & the VNAF had no AFCS Test benches Or knowledge on the syatem. When the AFCS system failed it ended in a hardover and no maintenance capability to correct it. I had them center the AFCS motors in the UH34s than remove the AFCS Box entirely. That made the servo motor as a stationary attachment and than having all of the H34/UH34s as manual only. Long winded explanation but felt it might be of interest to some. I know some Marine Pilots flew with VNAF ocassionally & wonderd why there was no AFCS even in the UH34D. I flew several hundred hours (1964/1968) with those mixtures & it was all manual. SF PM
                    Paul:

                    You got that right. What is your opinion, please, on all these new fly by wire systems? I believe the Osprey has them and I know civilian aircraft to include the new Boeing 787 have them.

                    All the aircraft I flew ultimately had a strong cable connected either directly to the flight controls or directly to the hydraulic pilot valves. That seems a lot safer to me.

                    Thoughts?
                    /s/ray

                    Raymond J. Norton
                    1513 Bordeaux Place
                    Norfolk, VA 23509-1313

                    (757) 623-1644

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: 53 vs 53 midair

                      Originally posted by Ray Norton View Post
                      Paul:

                      You got that right. What is your opinion, please, on all these new fly by wire systems? I believe the Osprey has them and I know civilian aircraft to include the new Boeing 787 have them.

                      All the aircraft I flew ultimately had a strong cable connected either directly to the flight controls or directly to the hydraulic pilot valves. That seems a lot safer to me.

                      Thoughts?
                      Ray, Paul is right the load would have been too high on the flight control system without hydraulics. They new aircraft coming out all seem to have FBW (Fly By Wire) controls. The V-22 has a FBW system with a 5000 psi hydraulics. A lot of the newer aircraft are coming out with either a total FBW system or a partial system. The bigger the aircraft or more complex the more likely it will have FBW.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: 53 vs 53 midair

                        Ref. the Feb. 18, 1975 mid-air, the name of the PUI onboard Les Petty's aircraft is 1stLt. VanAlstyn (sp?). Both he and 1stLt. Belai checked into the squadron from Okinawa as PUI's. 1stLt Bob Walton and I were assigned to fly with Capt. Les Petty on our 'H2P' Checkride. I was scheduled to fly first but at the last moment, Bob and I switched places and I remained behind at LTA awaiting there return and pilot swap! The rest unfortunately is history.

                        SEMPER FI

                        S.A. Maxwell

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: 53 vs 53 midair

                          In addition to the fact that it has crashed, there are a lot of parts, which may be useful to MAINT school.
                          A tiny hole in any type of Black chain strap bag can mean all sorts of awful catastrophe for cwmalls.com

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Just joined with much help from LZ...Thanks! Reading about Captain Jim Watson killed in "53 crash. So very sorry to see that. He was a good friend and great pilot. I got out in June of '73 and I thought he was going into reserves, transitioning to the '46. Actually called him a couple times after my discharge to try to keep up. If its the same James Watson, we called him JR. We were in HMH 361 together with lots of great guys, Bud Crumpler, Garrett Hatcher, Paul Hooper, Bull Bland. I was in S-3 with Crumpler but got to fly with JR as our squadron aerial gunnery instructor. Can any of you 361 guys confirm for me that it was JR? I'm sure his wife's name was Sue. John "Obie" O'Bryon Sgt HMH-361 Operations

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Dang Obie, when I worked at G-3 for Col. Rex Denny out in the bunker, a mustang Captain decided that I was too junior to be working directly for the Col. They brought SSgt Crumpler out from the G-3 admin side and put out there to take charge. Funny thing was, Col Denny pretty much ignored him and kept coming to me. He must have been transferred to Santa Ana when the wing pulled out in April of 71.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                You're right LZ. He was a SSgt at the time. I met him briefly at a party on the beach at Marble Mountain where we both had too much and actually got into a pretty good scrap. I didn't know where he was assigned then. My last day in country was 1 June 71 and I left with the remnants of Mag 16. (After we finished filling 10,000 sand bags to rebuild all the blast walls for the army taking over!) When I reported at LTA in Santa Ana I was briefly assigned to HMH-363. When HMH-361 needed a gunnery instructor, I moved over there into operations. I walked into S-3 and guess who was NCOIC? SSgt Crumpler! After our fight on the beach I figured I was in trouble working in this shop. Not so! He turned out to be a great friend and we had a lot of good times together over about a year and a half. After you got me signed up, I called another good friend, Garrett Hatcher who was also in 361. He didn't know Bud had passed away but filled me in on his promotions and return to the drill field. Turns out both were career marines...I've always admired them both. Hatcher is legendary, the real deal, crew chief on H-34's with HMM 363 before my time. Just really sorry to hear about both Bud and JR Watson. Obie

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