V-22 in Theatre

[JoeReed]

Reality Check!

This last crash, if it had been a 46 with engine loss, the Pilot could have pulled up on the collective, and jumped the ditch, and he would not have even had to do a roll on landing in the 1st place. The Crew Chief could have told the Pilot to do an orbit, and landed elsewhere.

Ace,
Clearly you never flew CH-46A models! If you lost and engine with a load of troops and fuel, and we did, you were going to land, post haste! there was no flying about finding a place for a nice smooth hover landing! It WAS going to be a roll on, even if you couldn't "roll" out!! To repeat my earlier post, the early '46 crews had the SAME dilema as the V-22 guys did a few years ago, The UH-34 guys talked about us exactly the way you are talking about V-22 folks! AND...they were full of crap, too! You flew the "D's" and know they were/are great birds!

[Dale A Riley]

Power

Joe, I remember that debate and all the auto-rotation practice on the 46A cause like you said - down is where you went. Being sent first to HMX-1 I heard from quite a few old salts to try and get assigned to the huey or the 53 for schooling and training BUT "needs of the service" prevailed.

[lurch]

I could have had my choice

I went 46s cause I was told I would get more flight time ! as far as the V-22 /CH -46 debate they are totally different air craft with both having stregths and weakness .I think the V-22 can not replace the 46 in toto nor can the 46 match range or flight specs as published for the V-22. I think composite squadrons are still the best answer with maybe four or six V-22 per MEU . it's all about capability and coordanation of assets. sf kc

[John Ace Hunt]

Power

Dale Glad for you. I'm glad I was sent to an F-8 Fighter Squadron for 2 years before I went Choppers. Especially glad I went the 46. I do have a good understanding of Fixed Wing, and DO feel I have a good knowledge of the Rotors. I've been following the 22 since it was started, and will continue to feel the way I do because of that knowledge. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[mecollins]

"Break-in Period"...

Ace,
Clearly you never flew CH-46A models! If you lost and engine with a load of troops and fuel, and we did, you were going to land, post haste! there was no flying about finding a place for a nice smooth hover landing! It WAS going to be a roll on, even if you couldn't "roll" out!! To repeat my earlier post, the early '46 crews had the SAME dilema as the V-22 guys did a few years ago, The UH-34 guys talked about us exactly the way you are talking about V-22 folks! AND...they were full of crap, too! You flew the "D's" and know they were/are great birds!

Joe,you & I go back a ways. Coming out of NAS,ADJ & BASHEL school.,I was cut orders for LTA,Santa Ana.,HMM 164. We were the 1st unit on the West Coast to receive 46's. At the time,they had 6 birds.,2 on the flight line in up status.,4 in the hangar.,1 of those cannibalized to the point of being a skeleton.
I really,REALLY,wanted to get up there & bore holes in the sky. The sight of those 4 a/c sitting in the barn & the inter-meshing rotor blades,gave me pause for thought,though.
All the 'ghost stories' passed on by the 'salts' that had served with units that had experience with the old HRP-1(?) 'Flying Banana'.,or 'Widow-maker',as they called it.,only served to exacerbate the situation. It's a wonderment that they were able to convince ANY of us young bucks to become junior airmen. (The attraction of a few extra bucks on payday was enough to overcome our fear & apprehension.)
Those 1st "A" models were a logistical & maintenance NIGHTMARE !!! They drove the mechs,avionics,& the bubble-chasers crazy.,supply as well. Nothing much,in the way of 'hands on' experience with this 'new-kid-on-the-block'...,too little a/c history to permit supply to keep common failure items in stock.,of which,there were MANY. That was early '65.
The break-in period saw significant improvement by '66.,especially in logistics. However,the droop-snoot blades were added to the "A" models,followed by the dash 10 engines. No mods incorporated to the air frame.
Enter the 'break-apart' phase.,when we became known as the "Great Green Bird With The Falling Tail". Evolution developed the "D" model & failure at the '410 station'.,ceased to be less of an issue. This mod came at a great loss of life. People had to learn that you cannot put 10 lbs. of s**t in a 5 lb. bag.
At this juncture.,there is not enough money to get me into a V-22 for a simple FAM hop...,WOULDN'T get into one of the old A's either.,as I remember them..,but then,again,I'm gettin' old & shakey. LOL
As much as we resent the '46 being put out to pasture.,time moves on.,so does technology. GET OVER IT !!!
By,the by...,for all you neophytes,unfamiliar with "A" models in a combat theater..,there was no such thing as the practiced RAL or CAL
procedure.,as enjoyed.,stateside.
Autorotation.,in country.,meant that you were the 1st to arrive at the scene of the crash.,if ya had a full load on an "A" model.,roll-on-landing thru the bush...,right,Joe ??? LOL
Craze

[lurch]

The film

hey CRAZE they had a film in bashel school that was made to show the flexing of a helos airframe and blades ,any one see it ? I remember alotta guys didn't wanna play after they saw it,and didn't ! but for me it was the only sure way I could be aircrew !Craze you brought a smile to my face Bottom line is "THEY'RE" gonna do what "THEY'RE" gonna do !, and ain't nothing "WE" say on "HERE" gonna change a damned thing !And "WE" should know that by now ! sf kc

[Walt]

HMM 262 flew over 2200 hundred hours in Feb of 67 with A models and some of the crew chiefs where right out of a school. They where bad but not that bad. When the Marines got the 46 it was the same bird that NY Airways flew. They never took into consieration the hard landings and other abuses we put on them.After 262 did the mod program they where better. The Marines lost most of the A models in 1968 in the Hillfights. Soon everone had D's and 69 starting getting F models because the engines where reeady to made E models.
Now the V22 has had many more problems then the 46 did but the people flying them now swear by them. I wouldn't be afried to ride in one I think it would get be back home.I went to a 261 reunion at New River after 261 came back from Afgan flying V22's they had a lot of good things to say about them and the worse thing they said about them was the parts problem.
SF

[John Ace Hunt]

'break in period'

Thats all well and good. I know for a fact every time our Squadron flew by Marble, Phu-bai, Quang-Tri, even down at Chu-Lai, we were ordered to do a roll on Auto-rotation, wether we wanted to or not. It would scare the crap out of the packs we had on, but didn't do them any good. Got to where I enjoyed doing them. Hope it will still be the end of '12 before my Squadron goes to the junk wagon. Maybe they will change the scheduled CO, from a Male to a Female, by then, a happy one at that. Doubt it though. I had an Alpha for each Bird I had. They were the modified Sigma Tail, as I was told that was the name of them, and they flew just fine for me. They would haul 20-21 packs without a problem at all, full load of Fuel too. I doubt as of now there are very many Marine Pilots that can do an auto-rotation, as I understand they were stopped as they didn't have enough replacements still in inventory to do them, due to lack of ability to do them without crashing, or causing hard landings, breaking the tails off again. I know there is not a Pilot what so ever that can do a button hook, on active Duty. I'd fly with any of my Past Pilots that cared to fly them today, any day of the week. Don't believe I'd want to fly with to many of the nuggets though. I intend to keep saying what I think of the 22, and will keep hoping they will be smart enough to keep at least a few 46 Squadrons going. That remains to be seen though. I bet if there are any more engine failures on the big bird, they will re-evaluate the transisition until the problems can be solved. This last April the Air Force had the crash due to the engine failures, and it may not be long before the Marine 22's start doing the same thing. Just have to see won't we?This machine says its 82 outside, but in reality, its only 63 here. The Calif. rain will be in Ok. by this Fri. some time, so be ready for it in Florida a few days later. Maybe even Christmas day. Have good ones, and Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

'The Film'

No Lurch, didn't get to see it even after I started Flying. It would have been nice to see it though. I noticed as the time wore on in Country, the ones that loved Flying kept on Flying, and the ones that didn't care to take the chances, didn't. That is just the way it was. One time after loosing one, I was able to get another the same day. It would usually take a few days though. The rain should be getting to you by now, and hope you don't get a land slide on your mountain from it. Stay warm, and Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

Parts problem

Walt thats Very Good. I know even with the tail mod., when I and my Gunner changed the engine at H&MS at Marble on Aug.26th,'69, I had a dash 10 engine almost hoisted into the #2 engine compartment, and the shop Gunny came running out to the Bird, made me stop, put it back on the stand, and push it back to the shop by myself. I was mad as ever, and told him the D*** tail has been modified to take a 10 engine, but he still would not let me put it in. I was going to put another 10 in the #1 next, and have a D wether they liked it or not. It did have a D tail on it, and not an Alpha tail. Whatever they called the thing. Like I said I was told the tail mod was called a Sigma, but that doesn't mean it was. The only engine I was allowed to get was another dash 8. A few Squadron members started helping us put it in, but I sent them back to the club after awhile, which left me and my Gunner to finish it. Again, glad it did warm up for you, and have a feeling you'll be getting soaked in a few days. Maybe even snow by Christmas. Stay warm. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[John Ace Hunt]

Missing Black Box

The Air Force has lost the black box. They said they didn't know it had one, and when they went back to get it, it was gone. That is the best cover up of engine failures I know of. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[timothy]

Lurch I've seen a video, I think from a Columbia logging machine (V107) with the camera outside shooting at the airframe twisting. It's awesome how much they twist, but I think you'd see flexing of any aircraft if you mounted outside cameras.

[John Ace Hunt]

V-107 logger

Lurch, Tim, each week there is a program on Dish, channel- Encore, named Helli-Loggers. I've missed it several weeks, but believe its on Tue, or Wed., 7, & 8 pm. They have a 47 with modified fuel tanks, and a 107 they call the vertol, and its Air logging in Canada/British Columbia. The only thing is they repeat it so often. There is a Lady flying the 107, does a good job, like the men that Fly the chinook. Believe they call the 47 the chinook. Other than Star Trek, I can only watch re-runs so many times. There are a few programs of it I don't mind watching, when the 107 is working Flying the logs out, but as said, the program is repeated a lot. They have haulled at least 4.3-4 ton on the 107 before. They have very good video out the windows, and all around good shots from the various angles. With a scale on the hook-up they can know how much they carry each load. They always carry on how much it costs the company to Fly the 107, and its 15 thousand Dollars an hour for the slick. I've said before if its that much, we set the Gov. back close to several hundred thousand Dollars per Day flying the 46, 10-11 hours a day. Thats with the Crew, guns and ammo. Hope its still on, and you can catch it. Hope its not in between making programs of it. Semper Fi, and READY-APP.

[lurch]

yes sir Tim

they all flex and twist ,flap and flutter lol

[lurch]

Eng nacell placenment

what about the supposed design flaw of low press air being feed into the rotor of the V-22 ? faster you try to go into a zone the worse it gets !just asking ? any one know ? as usual. sf kc